Christ First Forum

by **L.V.C.O.** » 17 Jul 2009, 22:25

This was shared with me and the more I read it the more it made sense. I hope you agree.

Romans 13 Revisited.

It seems that every time someone such as myself attempts to encourage our Christian brothers and sisters to resist an unconstitutional or otherwise reprehensible government policy, we hear the retort, "What about Romans Chapter 13? We Christians must submit to government. Any government. Read your Bible, and leave me alone." Or words to that effect.

No doubt, some who use this argument are sincere. They are only repeating what they have heard their pastor and other religious leaders say. On the other hand, let's be honest enough to admit that some who use this argument are just plain lazy, apathetic, and indifferent. And Romans 13 is their escape from responsibility. I suspect this is the much larger group, by the way.

Nevertheless, for the benefit of those who are sincere (but obviously misinformed), let's briefly examine Romans Chapter 13. I quote Romans Chapter 13, verses 1 through 7, from the Authorized King James text:

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

Do our Christian friends who use these verses to teach that we should not oppose America's political leaders really believe that civil magistrates have unlimited authority to do anything they want without opposition? I doubt whether they truly believe that.

For example, what if our President decided to resurrect the old monarchal custom of Jus Primae Noctis (Law of First Night)? That was the old medieval custom when the king claimed the right to sleep with a subject's bride on the first night of their marriage. Would our sincere Christian brethren sheepishly say, "Romans Chapter 13 says we must submit to the government"? I think not. And would any of us respect any man who would submit to such a law?

So, there are limits to authority. A father has authority in his home, but does this give him power to abuse his wife and children? Of course not. An employer has authority on the job, but does this give him power to control the private lives of his employees? No. A pastor has overseer authority in the church, but does this give him power to tell employers in his church how to run their businesses? Of course not. All human authority is limited in nature. No man has unlimited authority over the lives of other men. (Lordship and Sovereignty is the exclusive domain of Jesus Christ.)

By the same token, a civil magistrate has authority in civil matters, but his authority is limited and defined. Observe that Romans Chapter 13 clearly limits the authority of civil government by strictly defining its purpose: "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil . . . For he is the minister of God to thee for good . . . for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

Notice that civil government must not be a "terror to good works." It has no power or authority to terrorize good works or good people. God never gave it that authority. And any government that oversteps that divine boundary has no divine authority or protection. This is a basic principle of Natural Law (and all of America's legal documents--including the U.S. Constitution--are founded upon the God-ordained principles of Natural Law).

The apostle clearly states that civil government is a "minister of God to thee for good." It is a not a minister of God for evil. Civil magistrates have a divine duty to "execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." They have no authority to execute wrath upon him that doeth good. None. Zilch. Zero. And anyone who says they do is lying. So, even in the midst of telling Christians to submit to civil authority, Romans Chapter 13 limits the power and reach of civil authority.

Did Moses violate God's principle of submission to authority when he killed the Egyptian taskmaster in defense of his fellow Hebrew? Did Elijah violate God's principle of submission to authority when he openly challenged Ahab and Jezebel? Did David violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to surrender to Saul's troops? Did Daniel violate God's principle of submission to authority when he disobeyed the king's command to not pray audibly to God? Did the three Hebrew children violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to bow to the image of the state? Did John the Baptist violate God's principle of submission to authority when he publicly scolded King Herod for his infidelity? Did Simon Peter and the other Apostles violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to stop preaching on the streets of Jerusalem? Did Paul violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to obey those authorities who demanded that he abandon his missionary work? In fact, Paul spent almost as much time in jail as he did out of jail.

Remember that every apostle of Christ (except John) was killed by hostile civil authorities opposed to their endeavors. Christians throughout church history were imprisoned, tortured, or killed by civil authorities of all stripes for refusing to submit to their various laws and prohibitions. Did all of these Christian martyrs violate God's principle of submission to authority?

So, even the great prophets, apostles, and writers of the Bible (including the writer of Romans Chapter 13) understood that human authority--even civil authority--is limited.

Plus, Paul makes it clear that our submission to civil authority must be predicated on more than fear of governmental retaliation. Notice, he said, "Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake." Meaning, our obedience to civil authority is more than just "because they said so." It is also a matter of conscience. This means we must think and reason for ourselves regarding the justness and rightness of our government's laws. Obedience is not automatic or robotic. It is a result of both rational deliberation and moral approbation.

Therefore, there are times when civil authority may need to be resisted. Either governmental abuse of power or the violation of conscience (or both) could precipitate civil disobedience. Of course, how and when we decide to resist civil authority is an entirely separate issue. And I will reserve that discussion for another time.

Beyond that, we in the United States of America do not live under a monarchy. We have no king. There is no single governing official in this country. America's "supreme Law" does not rest with any man or any group of men. America's "supreme Law" does not rest with the President, the Congress, or even the Supreme Court. In America, the U.S. Constitution is the "supreme Law of the Land." Under our laws, every governing official publicly promises to submit to the Constitution of the United States. Do readers understand the significance of this distinction? I hope so.

This means that, in America, the "higher powers" are not the men who occupy elected office; they are the tenets and principles set forth in the U.S. Constitution. Under our laws and form of government, it is the duty of every citizen, including our elected officials, to obey the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, this is how Romans Chapter 13 reads to Americans:

"Let every soul be subject unto the [U.S. Constitution.] For there is no [Constitution] but of God: the [Constitution] that be [is] ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the [Constitution], resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For [the Constitution is] not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the [Constitution]? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For [the Constitution] is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for [the Constitution] beareth not the sword in vain: for [the Constitution] is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for [the Constitution is] God's minister, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

Dear Christian friend, the above is exactly the proper understanding of our responsibility to civil authority in these United States, according to the teaching of Romans Chapter 13.

Furthermore, Christians, above all people, should desire that their elected representatives submit to the Constitution, because it is constitutional government that has done more to protect Christian liberty than any other governing document ever devised by man. As I have noted before in this column, Biblical principles and Natural Law form the foundation of all three of America's founding documents: the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.

(See: http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2005/c ... 50630.html)

As a result, Christians in America (for the most part) have not had to face the painful decision to "obey God rather than men" and defy their civil authorities.

The problem in America today is that we have allowed our political leaders to violate their oaths of office and to ignore--and blatantly disobey--the "supreme Law of the Land," the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, if we truly believe Romans Chapter 13, we will insist and demand that our civil magistrates submit to the U.S. Constitution.

Now, how many of us Christians are going to truly obey Romans Chapter 13?

Copyright © 2009 Chuck Baldwin

by **Remnant** » 17 Jul 2009, 22:40

The problem in America today is that we have allowed our political leaders to violate their oaths of office and to ignore--and blatantly disobey--the "supreme Law of the Land," the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, if we truly believe Romans Chapter 13, we will insist and demand that our civil magistrates submit to the U.S. Constitution.

Amen!

by **Jeani** » 16 Aug 2009, 22:44

LVCO you posted: The problem in America today is that we have allowed our political leaders to violate their oaths of office and to ignore--and blatantly disobey--the "supreme Law of the Land," the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, if we truly believe Romans Chapter 13, we will insist and demand that our civil magistrates submit to the U.S. Constitution.
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I've been trying sooo hard to hold our political leaders accountable even at my church.

People are 'tired' of hearing me!

I just don't understand why soo many Americans are not waking up?????

by **L.V.C.O.** » 17 Aug 2009, 07:09

Jeani wrote:LVCO you posted: The problem in America today is that we have allowed our political leaders to violate their oaths of office and to ignore--and blatantly disobey--the "supreme Law of the Land," the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, if we truly believe Romans Chapter 13, we will insist and demand that our civil magistrates submit to the U.S. Constitution.
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I've been trying sooo hard to hold our political leaders accountable even at my church.

People are 'tired' of hearing me!

I just don't understand why soo many Americans are not waking up?????

Maybe it's exactly what you said. "People ARE tired of hearing". And not just you, but the message as a whole.

Remember what Peter said about there being "scoffers" in the last days?

2 Peter 3
The Day of the Lord
1Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.

3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

The faith they say they once had is disappearing every day Jesus prolongs his return. They are being "sifted" like wheat from the rest of Gods children.

God doesn't want children who believe in him with only HALF a heart. He is either your God and heavenly father or he isn't. NO MAYBE'S "BABIES" ARE ALLOWED!

It's that simple.

by **Carmela** » 17 Aug 2009, 07:16

I totally agree! It's a very strange day in which we live when the vast majority of people are so apathetic. . .and that includes Christians.

by **Jeani** » 17 Aug 2009, 15:39

This is the feedback I keep getting:

It's the Lord's will that Obama is in office,and we need to pray.

Not to say many of them 'voted' for him.

Yes, I agree it's the Lord's will that Obama is in office, but He's asking His children to turn back to Him.

I, also, believe He would like for us to 'fight' for Him; even though, he doesn't need us to fight for Him.

It's showing my love for Him,and I don't want my nation to push Him out.

It's like needing a job.

I pray about the Lord to lead me to a job,but it takes me going out to get that job.

I think our churches have sat on the pews far too long, and some preachers are preaching everything is just going to be rosy because we belong to Him.

what false teachings~

by **Carmela** » 17 Aug 2009, 20:06

what false teachings~

I agree!

by **L.V.C.O.** » 17 Aug 2009, 22:21

Jeani wrote:This is the feedback I keep getting:

It's the Lord's will that Obama is in office,and we need to pray.

Not to say many of them 'voted' for him.

Yes, I agree it's the Lord's will that Obama is in office, but He's asking His children to turn back to Him.

I, also, believe He would like for us to 'fight' for Him; even though, he doesn't need us to fight for Him.

It's showing my love for Him,and I don't want my nation to push Him out.

It's like needing a job.

I pray about the Lord to lead me to a job,but it takes me going out to get that job.

I think our churches have sat on the pews far too long, and some preachers are preaching everything is just going to be rosy because we belong to Him.

what false teachings~

It really wasn't God's will so much as it was our "LACK" of will to prevent his (Obama's) election.

I don't believe God would enforce his will on us like that. If so, then where was the FREE WILL we were told WE had? He lets us choose the direction we go. He just shows us "which" direction keeps us in the light, thereby we can see CLEARLY so as "not" to stumble.

He allows the "blind to lead the blind" which end up falling in the ditch and wants "his" children that follow him to walk the path he leads them though for safety.

by **Carmela** » 18 Aug 2009, 06:41

God is the one who puts leaders into place and removes them, so in that context it was His will for Obama to be placed in his current position in order for the Lord's plan to reach it climax. I also feel that even tho we have free will, God will have His way in the end. I have seen people who are saved, backslide into conditions that would destroy their soul and yet God brings about circumstances that appear to override their free will in order to bring them back into right standing with God. I realize what I am saying has controversial overtones, but I can only say what I have seen. The theological part, I will leave in God's hands.

by **L.V.C.O.** » 18 Aug 2009, 08:25

Carmela wrote:[color=#FF0040]God is the one who puts leaders into place and removes them, so in that context it was His will for Obama to be placed in his current position in order for the Lord's plan to reach it climax. I also feel that even tho we have free will, God will have His way in the end. I have seen people who are saved, backslide into conditions that would destroy their soul and yet God brings about circumstances that appear to override their free will in order to bring them back into right standing with God. I realize what I am saying has controversial overtones, but I can only say what I have seen. The theological part, I will leave in God's hands. [/color]

On this statement I would agree were we a nation ruled by kings, queens or dictatorship. But we are a democracy and we elect our leaders. For your statement to be true in this case would, IMO, fall into the same trap Adam and Eve found themselves in. Shifting the personal blame and accountable for eating the forbidden fruit from themselves to God. God told Adam and Eve the penalty. Yet, by choice, they ignored his warning and still ate. Did God make them eat? Of course not. Did he accept responsibility for Adam and Eve's disobedience? No.

God, in the Bible, has many times warned us of the upcoming judgments he is going to place on this world, Satan and the unbelievers. God also warned us of what happens when unjust leaders rule. Jesus prophesied what would occur when in the last days. Even with these warnings, man has (and still is) doing what "man" wants and ignoring God altogether. And when we ignore God and go our own way, doing "our" will, seeking "our own" lusts, it is only then we fall under the judgments of God. Then they say "It's God's will for our failings" or "It's God's fault for our troubles" or "If God only did what "I" wanted him to do".

When will "WE" start taking responsibility for the troubles "WE" got ourselves in to? Most of our nation VOTED Obama into office. God foresaw what our nation would do and warned us about it. But it was OUR responsibility to keep it from happening. Through "compromise" with unbelievers and those on the Liberal LEFT since the end of WWII until now, our nation has slowly moved from our blessings under God's guidance to the bloody dictatorship of Satan rule.

We took our Bibles from the schools. Then God from our public places. We gave into choice and in doing so "KILLED" 40,000,000 babies through abortion. We allow same sex marriage in some states and euthanasia in others. Was this God's way (as you said) to " have His way in the end"? You can tie our economic problems right now directly to the 40,000,000 aborted babies over the last 40 years. Those babies were a generation of tax payers whose income would have been really useful right about now. Is this what God wanted too?

With all due respect to you and all, I don't think so.

by **januarie** » 18 Aug 2009, 08:57

L.V.C.O, "we" didn't do any of that, the "godless" did and I can understand trying to make sense of what's happening today by viewing it from the perspective of the "end of days".

On the other hand, I think you are saying that Christians compromised with the world and now we are suffering for it. The trouble with that viewpoint is that I don't know any true, Bible believing, Blood bought Christians who are that wishy washy. For too long, America has been a nation of "so-called Christians" who have had a "form of religion while denying its power". Now, those of us who have the Holy Spirit living within us, are left to make sense of it.

(Nice to see you back on the forum, btw. :)

by **Carmela** » 18 Aug 2009, 12:05

I understand what you are saying, Jeffery. Maybe I look at things from a more general perspective. Everything that happens, God allows in order for His plan to proceed. Yes, we certainly do suffer the consequences of our own choices, but God ultimately has the upper hand. In Obama's case, a huge segment of the population of today is blinded to the truth in order for God's plan to come to fruition.

by **Remnant** » 18 Aug 2009, 17:01

Carmela wrote:I understand what you are saying, Jeffery. Maybe I look at things from a more general perspective. Everything that happens, God allows in order for His plan to proceed. Yes, we certainly do suffer the consequences of our own choices, but God ultimately has the upper hand. In Obama's case, a huge segment of the population of today is blinded to the truth in order for God's plan to come to fruition.

Amen Carmela!

There is Gods sovereign will and His purposeful will.

I will try to post more and make a thread out of it separately.

by **L.V.C.O.** » 18 Aug 2009, 18:10

januarie wrote:L.V.C.O, "we" didn't do any of that, the "godless" did and I can understand trying to make sense of what's happening today by viewing it from the perspective of the "end of days".

On the other hand, I think you are saying that Christians compromised with the world and now we are suffering for it. The trouble with that viewpoint is that I don't know any true, Bible believing, Blood bought Christians who are that wishy washy. For too long, America has been a nation of "so-called Christians" who have had a "form of religion while denying its power". Now, those of us who have the Holy Spirit living within us, are left to make sense of it.

(Nice to see you back on the forum, btw. :)

With all due respect, I know people who are "blood bought Christians" who believed that some type of compromise was the will of God and NOW regret that decision. Was that God's will too? And are they no less saved after they realized their mistake, confessed it and repented openly, trying to correct their mistake?

There will be days when what seems to be the RIGHT way ends up WRONG. And being able to know the difference isn't always clear. And though we may be still SAVED by Jesus's blood, it still doesn't make us any less ACCOUNTABLE for those mistakes. The Bible still says we must stand before God ( in judgment ) and explain our actions ( or in some cases, INACTION ). What motivated the choices each of us made.

There is an old saying that goes "The road to HELL is paved with GOOD INTENTIONS". When you think about it, is that not what people ( or Christians for that matter ) are doing today?

by **Remnant** » 18 Aug 2009, 18:38

L.V.C.O. wrote:
januarie wrote:L.V.C.O, "we" didn't do any of that, the "godless" did and I can understand trying to make sense of what's happening today by viewing it from the perspective of the "end of days".

On the other hand, I think you are saying that Christians compromised with the world and now we are suffering for it. The trouble with that viewpoint is that I don't know any true, Bible believing, Blood bought Christians who are that wishy washy. For too long, America has been a nation of "so-called Christians" who have had a "form of religion while denying its power". Now, those of us who have the Holy Spirit living within us, are left to make sense of it.

(Nice to see you back on the forum, btw. :)

With all due respect, I know people who are "blood bought Christians" who believed that some type of compromise was the will of God and NOW regret that decision. Was that God's will too? And are they no less saved after they realized their mistake, confessed it and repented openly, trying to correct their mistake?

There will be days when what seems to be the RIGHT way ends up WRONG. And being able to know the difference isn't always clear. And though we may be still SAVED by Jesus's blood, it still doesn't make us any less ACCOUNTABLE for those mistakes. The Bible still says we must stand before God ( in judgment ) and explain our actions ( or in some cases, INACTION ). What motivated the choices each of us made.

There is an old saying that goes "The road to HELL is paved with GOOD INTENTIONS". When you think about it, is that not what people ( or Christians for that matter ) are doing today?

Hi Jeffery, I believe that Obama was so allowed to be president of this country because America got what they wanted and asked for. I also believe it was part of Gods sovereign will for that to happen. I do not believe He wanted any of His children to vote for him. Could we have changed the outcome of the election. No! not at this point in history and bible prophecy.

I personally believe it is too late to change and undo the damaged that has be done. We are moving at break neck speed toward the time prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 24. Is that God's will? I believe it is. Do we sat and just watch it happen? No! We must still be active and in urgency getting the truth and message out. Our time is running short.

You said the road is paved with good intentions and yes they are but from what I see nothing good can come out of the Obama administration except that we are moved closer to the return of our Lord and the stage will be set in order for the Anti Christ to come into power. I believe the United states is the key. When America ceases to be a nation whose God is the Lord! Kate bar the Door!

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Romans Chapter 13 Revisited. "What does it REALLY say"?

Romans Chapter 13 Revisited. "What does it REALLY say"?

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