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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2014, 09:52 
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Dochifi wrote:
Frank, they seemed quite upset you left. Things did calm down with the simple fact coming out that one will not change another's preset mind in a simple online discussion.

I didn't just wake up one morning, read a verse, and go "ah, I believe I am a pre-tribber". It took me years to settle it, and settle it I did, with no need to worry about why I believe what I do.

I ended up posting something on the page from Hebrews about milk versus meat as in the end most of them do not appear to be mature Christians, so have no desire to delve into understanding Bible doctrines.


Brother, I will not allow anyone to use me as a door mat and when Kim said what she siad after I confronted her with truth settled it for me. I will not argue with a fool that just will not look at scripture in light of it being applicable to them. You are so right that most are very immature and will never be mature as long as they do not get involved in a bible believing doctrinal sound church. When I was on PNW I was constantly dealing with false doctrine of angels and the false doctrine of salvation. I am dusting my feet off.



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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2014, 13:25 
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I concur. Someone just laughed at one of your proof verses. I replied as kindly as I could. I have a feeling that will be my last post there. I have been dealing with Church of Christ cult and Calvinism and I really do not need to add to those two "light" subjects. haha

Thank you for your posts!

-Doc



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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2014, 14:36 
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Update - I bailed. They laughed at me, too. That didn't bother me, it was how lightly they take scripture.



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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2014, 15:33 
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Dochifi wrote:
Update - I bailed. They laughed at me, too. That didn't bother me, it was how lightly they take scripture.

I think that is very wise! :thup :yaab



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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PostPosted: 06 Sep 2014, 17:24 
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I find there can not be an discussion [argument in others terms] on when what takes place when only one is holding the pen and phone [I'm associating with Obama ] and all are to support what they support or else .. I can not in good faith believe what other believe just to gain their favor there are more who do not belie as I dio than believe what I do and that is their right , but it does not make me wrong and them right .. and what they believe what happens first does not cause me to not love them less or make me feel righteous to scorn them ,shame them , mock or poke fun of them or defriend them .

I have never been one to go along to get along God does not desire that His children do that ..
He does say "As long as it is up to you be at peace with all people" Though that in no way implies that we are to go along to get along that is the very reason we have arrived to where we now are today when anything and everything becomes law by those holding power in any position its no longer about the peoples personal views its all about one person bullying over others that is not nice I believe that everyone should have freedom to express what they believe and why they believe it .. Not allowing one freedom of expression (speech) is what gives fuel to the fire already burning against ones Liberties . What is important to keep an open board and believers on that board is do they believe that Yeshua is God that He alone made an atonement for their Life on Calvary's tree did they repent and both believe and receive Christ Yeshua as their Lord and Savior not just with their lips but from their heart ..
And if this is not what any here Admin or Mods believe is most important then feel free to kick me out because I do not want to be any place I am not welcome, that what I believe when and what happens first can not be discussed consider me gone



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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PostPosted: 06 Sep 2014, 17:37 
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Janet, First let me say that I do not agree with your interpretation of this board and what it stands for and in the Christian realm it is not okay for everyone to believe what they want and adhere to what they see fit to adhere to what they believe is right. their are christian doctrines, precepts and principles that should be applied in every believers life. We have posting guidelines for a reason and biblical stances that are here for the reason of keeping unsound teaching and doctrine out. That is to keep people that are teaching false doctrine that are on PNW and in that group that you have always been so fond of from turning it into a free for all here. The forum is open to all like minded people and unsaved alike in hopes that they will be saved. Now I hope you have not come here to pick a fight or spill over into this forum what I would not be a part of in that group?

You are always welcome, but remember we do have posting guidelines and rules! PS I am under the firm persuasion to believe what 1 Corinthians 2:11-16 says and that if we have the same Holy Spirit living in us then eventually that same Holy Spirit will reveal the same truth to us all. It is not a matter of private interpretation but of the Holy Spirit



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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2014, 20:22 
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A little more info I had posted that they pulled down for some reason. I find it interesting as I do not believe our God is the God of confusion, but rather clarity.

John 16:33, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." It is clear as a Christian we have tribulation. We know that after salvation our tribulation comes from Satan. He is the lord of the world and hates us, and that is made clear.

When you move to the great Tribulation, that is no longer Satan. The great Tribulation is God's judgement on an unbelieving world. This tribulation, or wrath, is not for the saved, but the unsaved. When you see how the end times are built and the purpose, to me this all comes pretty clear.

-Doc



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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2014, 20:57 
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Dochifi wrote:
A little more info I had posted that they pulled down for some reason. I find it interesting as I do not believe our God is the God of confusion, but rather clarity.

John 16:33, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." It is clear as a Christian we have tribulation. We know that after salvation our tribulation comes from Satan. He is the lord of the world and hates us, and that is made clear.

When you move to the great Tribulation, that is no longer Satan. The great Tribulation is God's judgement on an unbelieving world. This tribulation, or wrath, is not for the saved, but the unsaved. When you see how the end times are built and the purpose, to me this all comes pretty clear.

-Doc
:cam



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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2014, 03:32 
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Dochifi wrote:
A little more info I had posted that they pulled down for some reason. I find it interesting as I do not believe our God is the God of confusion, but rather clarity.

John 16:33, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." It is clear as a Christian we have tribulation. We know that after salvation our tribulation comes from Satan. He is the lord of the world and hates us, and that is made clear.

When you move to the great Tribulation, that is no longer Satan. The great Tribulation is God's judgement on an unbelieving world. This tribulation, or wrath, is not for the saved, but the unsaved. When you see how the end times are built and the purpose, to me this all comes pretty clear.

-Doc


I guess I will never understand how declared believers in God's Word misses the fact that the Tribulation is the time of God's great wrath. It isn't Satan who brings all the judgments upon the earth at this time. Just reading the book of Revelation, you can't miss that!

That is, unless you are spiritually blind.

Right now, we DO have tribulation. From the years 2001 to 2012 we' lost four precious members of the Martin family…first Hubby's Mom on the day after Christmas, then his Dad in the spring and his sister in the fall, then 2 years ago, his sister's oldest daughter, our niece. All in 11 year's time. This even encircled 9-11. And a Martin sis-in-law lost both her parents during this time. And this isn't even mentioning all the other sorrows and upheavals we went through during this time. But our family isn't an exception. It is the rule. Everyone goes through tribulation in this old world BEFORE the 7 year tribulation. The saved and the unsaved.

And I don't know how we would have gotten through it all without God in our hearts and lives.

Good posts, Frank and Doc! We need discerning thinkers when it comes to scriptures.

:cam AND :cam



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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2017, 21:53 
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Bump!



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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2017, 12:42 
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Here is an excellent article from the FBFI (Fundamental Baptist Fellowship International) in reply to a man who publicly moved away from premellenialism.

http://www.proclaimanddefend.org/2017/0 ... of-christ/

Here is the full text if you do not wish to jump:

Why I Cannot Change My Mind on the Premillennial Return of Christ

FEBRUARY 16, 2017

Matthew Recker

In a Gospel Coalition article, Sam Storms has a piece entitled “Why I Changed My Mind on the Millennium.” He says that it is now impossible for him to hold to premillennialism, having now switched to an amillennial position.
As a response, I would like to share why I cannot change my mind on a premillennial position.

Storms finds it impossible to believe in the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ on earth for 1,000 years for a number of reasons and concludes that “premillennialists must believe what the NT explicitly denies.” Major points that he insists that are a clear contradiction to NT teaching is that premillennialists must “believe that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ’s second coming.” He also insists that the “the New Heavens and the New Earth are introduced immediately following the parousia.”
Does the Scripture teach explicitly and without any doubt what Storms says that it does?

No, it does not. I wholeheartedly disagree with Storms on these points and other details he says the New Testament cannot teach regarding Christ’s literal earthly kingdom. Let’s consider these two points in further detail and then conclude with John’s chronology in the Book of Revelation, a chronology which contradicts Storms’ amillennialism.

In 1 Corinthians 15:54, Paul writes that when the rapture comes, “death is swallowed up in victory.” Paul nowhere indicates that this defeats death for all mankind at the moment of His Rapture or even His Revelation return. Revelation 6-19 tells us that many will die after the rapture during the Tribulation period. Revelation 20:9 tells us that many rebels will be devoured at the conclusion of the Millennium, which is 1000 years after His glorious return. The fact is, death is not destroyed until after the Great White Throne Judgement, Rev 20:14 “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul is speaking to the church and promises that individual Christians and the corporate church will be raptured “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” For them, death will be defeated (1 Corinthians 15:52). But Paul never states that death itself will be defeated at the moment of Christ’s return for the saints, only that Christ’s resurrection will ultimately put death to death for all who believe in Him.

Next, Isaiah 65:17-25 describes the Millennial Kingdom saying that there will still be sin and therefore death after the return of Christ: “For the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed” (v. 20). While the Millennium will be a period of unsurpassed righteousness and the curse of sin is beginning to be lifted, the Millennium will not be without any sin or disobedience. Unparalleled peace and long life will characterize the Millennium, but the earth will not be fully delivered from the curse of sin and even the presence of death until after the Millennium.

In Isaiah 65:17-25, the prophet shows a clear connection between the Millennium and the Eternal Kingdom of Jesus Christ. Isaiah often does not distinguish between the Millennium and the Eternal State, such as in Isaiah 60:19-20. Isaiah sees these two aspects of God’s rule together as one. Why? Because the Millennium, although it is 1000 years, is a brief period of time in comparison to eternity, yet both are a part of the eternal kingdom of Christ with the Millennium the first stage of His eternal Kingdom. However, this does not mean they are identical. One reason is that the Millennium clearly has a temple whereas in the eternal kingdom there will be no temple.

During the Millennium, the sacrifices will be offered in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, described (in much detail) by Ezekiel 40-48. For the first time, animal sacrifices will be offered by national Israel in faith with a full understanding of why they are being made: to remember and rejoice in the finished work of Christ. Therefore, animals will continue to die in the Millennial period.
Zechariah 14:17 indicates that some will not obey the Lord Jesus after His return and during the Millennium. Some will refuse to come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord Jesus Christ, and “upon them shall be no rain.” During this part of His Kingdom, Jesus will rule with a rod of iron, and He will punish all disobedience, smite the disobedient with a plague, and “smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.” (Zechariah 14:18-20)

Finally, the New Testament lays out a straightforward chronology in Revelation 19-22 of the things that will happen from the time of His coming to the eternal state. Storms says this is impossible to believe. The final eschatological events as given in Revelation 19-22 are as follows:

The Second Coming of Christ in glory, Revelation 19:11-21
The Binding of Satan and a 1,000 Year Millennium, Revelation 20:1-6
The Final rebellion in battle of God and Magog, Revelation 20:7-9
The Judgement of Satan and the Great White Throne Judgment of unbelievers, Revelation 20:10-15
(Including the destruction of death and hades as they are cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20.14)
The Creation of the New Heaven and Earth and the removal of the curse, Revelation 21-22

If there is going to be a literal earthly Kingdom with Jesus Christ sitting on the throne of David for 1,000 years, how much more clear could Scripture be? Postmillennialists and amillennialists insist on allegorizing many Scriptures and replacing Israel with the church, including this concluding section of the Scripture. They also say that the 1000 years is not 1000 literal years, although this time period is explicitly referenced six times in Revelation 20:1-6.

Storms says that the natural creation continuing under a form of the curse of sin after Christ’s coming, is impossible. Nevertheless, Revelation 20, taken at face value, indicates that the New Heaven and Earth will not be created until after the 1000-year Millennial Rule. Those born during the Millennium will have the opportunity to witness the visible rule of the Lord Jesus Christ in fulfillment of all the OT and NT Covenant promises, and they like anyone else during human history must be born again to enter the eternal Kingdom of God. The natural creation will not be set free from its bondage until after the final rebellion at the conclusion of the Millennium and the Great White Throne Judgment. In all of what John writes in Revelation, and contrary to what Storms’ teaching, there is no indication that the Bible explicitly teaches that the New Heaven and New Earth must be introduced immediately following His Second Coming. Why would a clear reading of the Bible be impossible to believe?

Perhaps Storms would say that 2 Peter 3:4-14 is one such passage that bolsters his amillennial view that the New Heaven and earth immediately follow Christ’s second coming. After all, Peter places the two events of Christ’s coming and the New Heaven and Earth together. Nevertheless, Peter’s emphasis is not upon a fixed order of future events, but to challenge Christians to holy living now in light of all aspects of the eschatological climax of human history. Peter links our future hope with our daily conduct.
As one reads this passage, it is not at all improbable that the coming of Christ and the subsequent creation of the New Heaven and New earth will be separated in time by even a long period of time. Peter focuses the reader upon the Day of the Lord (2 Peter 3:8-14) and the end of human history upon earth and how this should cause us to live godly for His glory in the present time. Peter in no way establishes an order that requires the New Heaven and New Earth to immediately follow His coming. In fact, Peter’s overall emphasis in this passage is not upon the personal return of Christ but rather he emphasizes the extended period of time called the Day of the Lord which concludes with the creation of the new heaven and earth. It is also in this passage that he states, “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (2 Peter 3:8). Clearly this reminds us that a 1000-year Millennial Kingdom separates His glorious return from the making of the New Heaven and Earth. Peter is perfectly consistent with the order laid out by John in Revelation 19-22.

We must remember that Biblical writers may place two events right next to each other that may be many years apart. Isaiah 61:2 is a classic prophetic passage that tells us of two events listed beside each other but are separated in time by 1000 years. “To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD” fulfills Christ’s first coming. “And the day of vengeance of our God” fulfills His second coming.
The Millennial hope was the clear expectation of the early church and it remains the expectation of many godly, believing people. Let’s not let go of this incredible promise! Premillennialism rests securely upon the hermeneutic of a literal interpretation of Scripture that leads us to “be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless” (2 Peter 3:14). “Even so, come, Lord Jesus” (Revelation 22:20).

Matt Recker is the pastor of Heritage Baptist Church in New York City.



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 Post subject: Re: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2017, 04:48 
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Dochifi wrote:
A little more info I had posted that they pulled down for some reason. I find it interesting as I do not believe our God is the God of confusion, but rather clarity.

John 16:33, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." It is clear as a Christian we have tribulation. We know that after salvation our tribulation comes from Satan. He is the lord of the world and hates us, and that is made clear.

When you move to the great Tribulation, that is no longer Satan. The great Tribulation is God's judgement on an unbelieving world. This tribulation, or wrath, is not for the saved, but the unsaved. When you see how the end times are built and the purpose, to me this all comes pretty clear.

-Doc

The Tribulation is the ac and fp and the tribulation comes first and then Gods wrath. The tribulation they are saying who is like him the ac.
Gods wrath they are no, longer saying who is like him ,but bowing to the Lord and confessing .
there are two resurrection the first for the saved the second for the unsaved.
if the Jews are left behind then the OT Saints would be left behind but all born again of Christ will not be left behind .. the dead in Christ will first in the twinkling of an eye, all in the body of Christ will be gathered from there is neither jew nor gentile male or female all of Christ are sealed by the Holy Spirit of God and what God seals no man nor angel can unseal. .
The OT saints could not inter their Sabbath rest until Calvary because they could not enter their Sabbath rest based on their own merits if they could Christ wouldn't have needed to hang on Calvarys tree .. all in the body are saved none are left behind because all are Christ's .
Remember after Calvary that graves were open they were seen .. Yeshua took paradise to the third Heaven .



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