Christ First Forum

Where do you stand on predestination?

Eph. 1:4-5. . . "For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ. . . . . "

Romans 8:29. . . "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son. . . . "

Pr. 16:4. . . "The Lord hath made all things for Himself; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

II Thes. 2:13. . . "God hath from the beginning, chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

I believe that Scripture shows that the Lord predestined each and every one of us for his purposes.

Elijah wrote:Where do you stand on predestination?

Brother, I would be glad to answer this but would you clarify in reference to what?
I would like to ask you a question! Of all the questions you could have asked, why is this the first one that you wanted to know? Just curious?

This question is like the ones that are pre loaded. There is no correct answer (to satisfy either side) and no reasoning on either side of this coin.

It is an arguement before it is ever started.

One cannot deny the Soverignity of God. One cannot deny predestination.
One cannot deny the free will of man to come to Christ. One cannot deny that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

That is one cannot deny these things unless you change the intent of the Bible.

I am assuming that you are not trolling here, and am presenting an article from another site, (used by permission) that might interest you.

We need to have complete confidence in our "helmet of salvation." There is no room for uncertainty about its adequacy or the durability of its protection.

Are you "going to heaven? Are you really sure? Or is it just a vague hope?

Where there is uncertainty concerning how salvation is attained - confusion as to what took place at the Cross - there will be confusion over whether it can be maintained. This issue reveals the reality of the Cross. If our salvation hinges on anything but the finished work of Christ on the cross, we are in deep trouble. Why should God let you into heaven?

• "Nobody’s perfect." That’s the problem.
• "I am as good as the next guy." Strike one.
• "I am doing the best I can." Strike two.
• "I’ll try harder." Strike three.

Try? My best? Church? Believe in God? Contribute? All are woefully inadequate to merit the destiny which He has reserved for us.

How, then? By faith alone. Faith is our response to His offer. He has done the entire job. It is actually blasphemy to suggest that we can contribute anything to what He has already completed.

If our salvation is not secure, how could Jesus say about those to whom He gives eternal life, "they shall never perish"?

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
John 10:28-29

"They shall never perish." His is not a probationary life. "No man can pluck them out of My hand." There could not be a stronger statement.

Notice that you are in good hands: both of them. There are two hands involved: "my hand" (v.28) and "my Father’s hand" (v.29). The "eternal fist" of the Father and the Son.
Carefully note the following:

We are Christ’s sheep: it is the duty of the shepherd to care for each of his flock. The Shepherd keeps the sheep, not the sheep.
To each (already) is imparted eternal life. An ending, or forfeiture, would involve a contradiction in terms.
It is given, not merited: thus, we cannot demerit it.
They shall never perish. God cannot lie.
None is able to pluck them; even the Devil is unable to destroy a single one of them.
In the Father’s hand. No disappointments are thus possible. (Jesus handed this responsibility over to the Father in John 17.)
If Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost, and yet we can somehow become unsaved "and therefore undo what Christ came to do" would it not be wise for God to take us on to heaven the moment we are saved in order to insure that we make it? Isn’t it unnecessarily risky to force us to stay here?

If salvation is not a settled issue, how can I "be anxious for nothing?"

If a man or a woman ends up in hell, who has at some point in life put his or her trust in Christ, doesn’t that make what Jesus said to Nicodemus a lie? If there is a condition "—even one" attached to God’s willingness to maintain a relationship with His children, it is not unconditional.

Are you focusing on your own behavior rather than on Christ? We are never completely free to fasten our gaze on Him until we are sure our relationship with Him is secure.

The Sovereignty of God vs. The Sovereignty of Man

Predestination vs. Free Will is one of the classic debates throughout the entire history of both philosophy and theology. The doctrine of election also lies at the root of the traditional debate between Calvinism and Arminianism.

(When the Lord Himself touched on this issue in Nazareth, they attempted to throw Him off a cliff!)

The "Once Saved Always Saved" view is still a very controversial topic among those grappling with the apparent paradoxes emerging from this issue. Our own view is that both views - Calvinism and Arminianism - are correct in what they assert, pre-destination and free-will, yes, they can co-exist, but both are wrong in what they deny. Calvinism denies us the capacity to believe, while Arminianism denies the security of eternal life.

This classic debate, we believe, can only be resolved by recognizing that God is outside our domain of time. The great insight of modern physics is the discovery that time is a physical property. Since God is not bound by the restrictions of our physical existence, He is not someone who has "lots of time," but rather One who is outside our domain of time altogether.

While we have complete freedom of choice - within our dimensionality of time - He is outside of that domain and He alone knows the end from the beginning. Thus, it is a courtship between two sovereignties.

It is His faithfulness and unconditional love that we have the opportunity to receive.

The Prodigal Son

We all recall the famous parable of the Prodigal son. Unthinkably rebellious, disdainful of his situation, he ends up in a hopeless mess. Which of the son’s good works maintained the relationship between the father and the son in the parable? None.

Yet, had he forfeited any rights to his sonship? This is one of the key lessons of the parable: Once a son, always a son. The relationship was unbroken, even though his fellowship had been interrupted by his misdemeanors.

As a believer, you will never be judged for your sins. It is so settled in the mind of God. However, some of us never seem to get out of the courtroom and into the family room. There is far more than mere forgiveness in store for us, if we are "in Christ."

Adoption

Romans Chapter 7 is sometimes described as "law school." Yet the following chapter deals with our transcendence through adoption. In the culture of that time, the procedure of adoption elevated a child into eligibility for his inheritance.

If salvation wasn’t permanent, why introduce the concept of adoption? Wouldn’t it have been better just to describe salvation in terms of a conditional contract between man and God?

Is your adoption probationary? Why would God choose, before the foundation of the world, to adopt someone He knew He would eventually have to unadopt? Could you ever really put your total trust in a heavenly Father who might unadopt you? (I have heard of unwanted pregnancies. I have never heard of an unwanted adoption.)

To believe we can be unadopted is to believe that man is able to thwart the predestined will of God.

The authors of the New Testament left us with detailed explanations of how one becomes a child of God. If that process could be reversed, doesn’t it make sense that at least one of them would have gone into explaining that as well?

Sealed

We also notice that the New Testament repeatedly applies to us the concept of being "sealed." The term explicitly denotes protection and security; being closed off from outside influences and interferences.

What is the significance of a seal that can be removed and reapplied? What does it really seal? To allow "unsealing" involves a contradiction in terms. (In the Book of Revelation, 144,000 are sealed. The entire group reappears later in Chapter 14. How many were lost?) None!

[Maybe we’d better just hope for the best: We’d better cross our fingers and hope that Christ ultimately defeats the Antichrist in the end. If mortal man can thwart God’s prophetic will for his own life, think of what a supernaturally empowered world leader could do on a larger scale!] Isn't that nonsense!

In Conclusion

Resolve any insecurities you may have with respect to your own eternal destiny NOW. It is clearly the most important issue in your life. Is there anything keeping you from accepting God’s free gift of salvation right now?

If your helmet appears perishable or lacking durability, your potential victory in the spiritual battles you are continually facing will prove fragile. The believer knows his ultimate victory is certain. Reread Romans 8:28-39. And remember who is continually holding you up in prayer: Our Lord Himself!

This article was originally published in the
February 1997 Personal Update NewsJournal.

I see both sides of the issue, and I'm not looking for a fight.

I think the scriptures are quite abundant for the Calvinist, but I think the character and nature of God, along with some scriptues, appeal to the Aminian.

So its a toss up for me......either way, I can't change it, if its Calvinism, and if its Arminianism, I'm good.

Just curious....thats all

So its a toss up for me......either way, I can't change it, if its Calvinism, and if its Arminianism, I'm good.
Just curious....thats all

Thanks for clearing that up. I have seen this debate to often and it usually from one side verses the other and neither is totally correct.

We see in Ephesians 1:4 that God chose us before he even created the world. How humbling that even before he laid the foundations of the world, he knew who we were and despite our sin and rebellion he chose us. Does that mean those if us who are chosen are off the hook we don't need to do anything?

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

There are many passages that put the responsibility of accepting his gift of salvation on us. Romans Romans 10:9-10 is but one passage. This seems at odds, he either elected certain individuals or with our free will he are free to accept or reject his gift of salvation

9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

While I (and most other Christians) don't have an iron clad argument for or against either theology. I find the passage of John 9:1 to be an interesting word picture of the balance the God has struck between election and free will.

1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

3 "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. 4 As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

6 Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. 7 "Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

Here in the passage the Apostles first ask whether sin was the cause of the man's blindness. This was a current belief at the time. Thy believed that either he sinned (in the womb) or the parents sinned to such an extent that God decided to strike their child with blindness. Kind of casts God in an unloving and untrue light but that's a topic for another day.

Jesus corrects them that he was born blind for Gods glory, how odd but it shows that God chose before this man was born to have him blind, this in essence the theology of election. Jesus heals him not by touching him as he had done countless times with others but rather spit in some dirt to make some mud and applied that to the man's eyes. Why did he do that, I have no idea but the next part of the passage is interesting. He tells the blind man to go to the pool of Siloam and wash his face. The man needed to act, if he thought that was a crazy idea he could have just wiped the mud off of his face and stayed blind. God required action on his part to complete the equation.

I cannot fully explain, or understand the balance of election and free will but I can see from this passage that God chooses people and yet it is still our responsibility to act. The consequences are dire. If the man rejected the instructions he would have lived the rest of his life blind, our decisions on the gift of God have much far reaching consequences, that is where we spend eternity hangs inthe balance of our decision.

A nice quote from John Macarthur http://www.scripturezealot.com/ summarizes the balance rather nicely.

How these two sides of God's truth--His sovereignty in choosing us (Rom. 9) and our responsibility to confess and believe (Rom. 10)--reconcile is impossible for us to understand fully. But Scripture declares both perspectives of salvation to be true (John 1:12-13). It's our duty to acknowledge both and joyfully accept them by faith.

I have a little illustration that I use from time to time to explain this.
When a husband finds a bride, even though he has chosen that bride, in order for it to be a marriage, the bride must also in turn choose to be married to the groom.

We are the bride of Christ! God chose us to be that but we also had to make a choice by faith to accept him as such. We could reject Him and therefore not be the bride.

Thanks Remnant......I believe me and you are on the same wave length.

Macarthur also says that its kinda like the trinity, and Christ being 100% man, and a 100% God.....its just something that we don't understand, but we accept.

My beliefs on "predestination" are quite simple and to the point..we all, everyone, whosoever, whoever, the world, are predestined to a choice which inevitability determines our eternal life, beyond our existence of this world. We must make a choice, a God given responsibility, to either accept God's gift of salvation or deny Him.

I am always deeply concerned when we as Christians place our faith in man's ideologies, such as Calvinism and Arminianism. God's Word stands alone, and requires no outside influences.

If we follow the teachings of His Word and how it pertains to us, and allow the Holy Spirit to lead the way, why would we desire to seek the truth elsewhere?

Elijah,

I wanted to state the definitions of Calvinistic View and Armenian's View.

Calvinists hold that the election of individuals to sal. is absolute, unconditional, by virtue of an eternal divine decree.

Armenians regard election as conditional upon repentance and faith; the decree of God is that all who truly repent of their sins and believe on Christ will be saved.

I believe they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ are effectually called unto faith in Christ by the HS working in due seasons; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation.

Salvation is not by 'works' but of grace.

Works means it is not what 'man' does that determines whether he is to be one of the elect or not.

Faith is a gift from God, and we cannot work for it.

I believe God 'predesignated' everyone to be save, but He give us 'free will' to accept Him.

Predestination comes after salvation to me.

God predesignates certain people for certain purposes to fulfilled the Lord's will.

For instance, Moses to lead his people out.

I am saved by what Christ did on the cross, and you can't add anything to it.

Thank you, Lord, for saving my soul.

Thanks for that comparasion, Jeani. I was just thinking that I was going to have to look that up somewhere to see the difference.

[size=24][/size]As a believer, you will never be judged for your sins. It is so settled in the mind of God. However, some of us never seem to get out of the courtroom and into the family room. There is far more than mere forgiveness in store for us, if we are "in Christ."

Oh, that was soooo good for me at this time in my life! I don't know who said it, but I immediately highlighted it so I could continue reading and print it out. I desire to get out of the courtroom and into the family room. I know I just soooo need to accept that I've been forgiven of all my sins, even the ones committed after my surrender.

It just seems so unbelievable that He does this for us and that He loves us so unconditionally. All He asks is that we ask for forgiveness and He knows our hearts if we truly intend to seek after His righteous and trust in Him.

I think this was a little sermon to myself!

sweetsurrender wrote:It just seems so unbelievable that He does this for us and that He loves us so unconditionally. All He asks is that we ask for forgiveness and He knows our hearts if we truly intend to seek after His righteous and trust in Him.

I think this was a little sermon to myself!

Sweets, it is such a pleasere to see your earnest seeking of the will of God, and your openess in doing so.

When we apply 1 John 1:9 we are immediately forgiven our sins, and cleansed of all unrighteousness [unrighteousness - the sins we commit, but do not yet recognise as sin] which puts us right back into fellowship with God.

It is so simple that it takes us a while to grasp it, because humans have a habit of thinking everything is complicated. God knew that many of us would not have a large IQ, so He made Salvation simple enough so that even a little child can understand it.

This does not imply that children have a low IQ, but that they are not yet educated in more sophisticated things. God, in His infinate wisdom, has supplied our spiritual needs, and it is up to us to seek them, which you are doing.

I think instead of saying it is so unbelievable that I would say it is so awesome, because it is totally awesome that He loves us unconditionally.

Mark 10:13~
Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them but the disciples rebuked those who brought them.

But when Jesus saw it. He was greatly dispeased and said to them, 'Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.What beautiful words from the Lord!

The Lord wants children and adults to come to the Lord in 'child like trust and dependence.'

Isn't this a 'beautiful picture' in our mind seeing those precious children with Jesus, and He was touching them!