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Most Controversial Issues In The Church Today

Defending the Faith and Discussing doctrinal issues of the Christian faith.

Moderators: Carmela, JWayne, Remnant, AHeartofJoye

Most Controversial Issues In The Church Today

Postby Remnant » 03 Dec 2008, 07:07

1. The Doctrine of Salvation!
Can a person Lose their salvation? Some say yes!

2. The Doctrine of Hell!
Is it eternal and forever?
Some say it is not!


3. Doctrine of The Holy Spirit and the Gifts!
Some say that all believers should speak or pray in tongues!

4. Doctrine of Angels!
Some say that Demons at one time procreatated with humans and they believe in the Nephilim!

5. Bible Prophecy Concerning The End Times (The Rapture)
Pre-Trib, Post-Trib and Mid-trib and Pre-Wrath. Or their will be no Rapture!

I would like to invite all on this discussion and please invite others to join in.
What do you say?


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Re: Most Controversial Issues In The Church Today

Postby Carmela » 04 Dec 2008, 15:30

Remnant wrote:1. The Doctrine of Salvation!
Can a person Lose their salvation? Some say yes!
I believe that one can walk away from God and lose their salvation. God does not take it away, the person rejects it.

2. The Doctrine of Hell!
Is it eternal and forever?
Some say it is not!

To me, Scripture is very clear that hell is for all eternity. Why the controversy when Scripture is so clear is beyond me

3. Doctrine of The Holy Spirit and the Gifts!
Some say that all believers should speak or pray in tongues!
Not all believers have the gift of tongues which is speaking in a known language but not known to the believer. The prayer language of tongues is personal between God and the person and has nothing to do with salvation.

4. Doctrine of Angels!
Some say that Demons at one time procreatated with humans and they believe in the Nephilim!
This subject is just plain weird so I don't pay much attention to it.

5. Bible Prophecy Concerning The End Times (The Rapture)
Pre-Trib, Post-Trib and Mid-trib and Pre-Wrath. Or their will be no Rapture!
I don't feel that Scripture is 100% clear on the timing of the rapture so I'm ready whenever it comes.

I would like to invite all on this discussion and please invite others to join in.
What do you say?


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Re: Most Controversial Issues In The Church Today

Postby Remnant » 04 Dec 2008, 16:47

Carmela, Thanks for your post on this and I hope others will join this discussion. I will give my thoughts later!

Can you or anyone else think of other controversial issues that I have not mentioned? :gdp
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Re: Most Controversial Issues In The Church Today

Postby Jeani » 08 Dec 2008, 01:45

1. The Doctrine of Salvation!
Can a person Lose their salvation? Some say yes!

No, I don't believe a person can lose their salvation because we are saved on what 'Christ did on the cross.' We cannot save ourselves. Christ died for our past-present-future sins on the cross so that we can have eternal life.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:8-9

For by grace (unconditional love) you have been saved through faith (faith is a free gift from God that cannot be earn),and that not of yourselves (we cannot do anything to earn salvation); it is the gift of God (when we receive a gift we cannot earn that gift except to accept that gift) not of works (we cannot work our way to heaven) lest anyone should boast (we do not save ourselves,but the Lord saves us by dying on that cross at Calvary)

2. The Doctrine of Hell!
Is it eternal and forever?
Some say it is not!

Hell is eternal as we believe heaven is eternal.

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched.

Mark 9:45
And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched- where
There worm does not die
And the fire is not quenced
.

3. Doctrine of The Holy Spirit and the Gifts!
Some say that all believers should speak or pray in tongues!

I believe that tongues are a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers (1 Cor 12:22)

Self edification was a side effect that the believer enjoyed for merely exercising hs gift of tongues.

The modern day Pentecostal movement, on the other hand, stresses edification for the individual believer and the Church, never as a sign to a believers.

Spiritual gifts were promised by the Lord to believers; were administered by the apostles; and were for a limited time. (Mark 16:15-18) (Acts 8 & 19) (1 Cor. 13)

In Cor 13:8 Paul stated that 'love never fails.' But he says that the gifts of prophecies, tongues, and knowledge would cease or would be done away. And this would happen when that which is perfect is come .

Spiritual gifts ceased because their need ceased. Some died instantly. The spiritual gifts of prophecies and knowledge was done away. When God finished His gospel to us there was no more need for those spiritual gifts. These spiritual gifts stopped because God stopped revealing. His message was complete. Some spiritual gifts lingered for awhile and died of their own accord. The spiritual gift of tongues would cease or stop by itself. One would assume that when the last person died who had the spirutual gift of tongues, that spirutual gift died also.

The Permanent Spiritual Gifts:
1. Teaching
2. Ministering
3. Administration
4. Evangelism
5. pastor-teacher
6. Exhortation
7. Giving
8 Mercy
9. Faith
10. Celibacy

First requirement of an apostle had to be an eye witness to the Ressurrection.

There are no apostles today.





4. Doctrine of Angels!
Some say that Demons at one time procreatated with humans and they believe in the Nephilim!

I do believe these scriptures could mean angels cohabit with women.

In Luke 20:27-36 I believe the scriptures implies that the angels do not marry, it does not say that they are sexless.

Angels were created,and they never die,but in Genesis seems to teach it.

These angels must have been a special class of angels condemned for some particular sin.

It's the same sin that caused the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah whose inhabitants demanded of Lot, the surrender of the two Angels that he had received into his home, that they might know them. (2 Peter 2:6-8) (Jude 7) (Gen 19:5)

The scriptures clearly teach that angels can assume fleshly bodies and eat and drink with men. (Gen 18:1-8)

So the difficulty vanishes when we see that the 'Sons of God' assumed human bodies and as men married the 'Daughters of Men.'

We must not forget the 'Garden of Eden' was not destroyed until the Flood.

The sons of Seth and the daughters of Cain had doubtless often intermarried before,but there were no such children born to them.

We see in Gen 6:4 there was giants, mighty men, men of renown.

As no one will really know for sure, one can only study scripture.

5. Bible Prophecy Concerning The End Times (The Rapture)
Pre-Trib, Post-Trib and Mid-trib and Pre-Wrath. Or their will be no Rapture!

Rapture before the Tribulation.

Study 1 Thess 4 where the church will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air,and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Study 1 Cor 15 about the Rapture.

The Tribulation is not for the perfecting of the Saints. It has nothing to do with the Church. It is the time of 'Jacob's Trouble' (Jer 30:7),and is the 'judgment of Israel' and it is God's purpose to keep the Church out of it. Rev 2:10

Numerous passaes in scripure speak of Christ coming with His saints (Zech 14:5) (Col 3:4) (1 Thes 3:13)

The marriage of the church is referred by Jesus in the Parable in Mat 22:1-14)

The church is the bride and Jesus is the bridegroom.

In Rev. 4 the church is mention,and it's not mention again until Rev 19.

Where's the church? In the Rapture with the Lord. Marrying the bride and groom,and Jesus said He went to prepare a mansion for us.

I would like to invite all on this discussion and please invite others to join in.
What do you say?
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Re: Most Controversial Issues In The Church Today

Postby Remnant » 08 Dec 2008, 12:29

Thanks Carmela and Jeani for your answers!

Before I give my input, I would like to make it clear that this is not for debate but for discussion and I knew that we would not all agree on all these issues.

I feel it is important for discussion because of the controversies that leads to division in the body of Christ and the doctrinal issues concerning these topics.

I believe that if we who are in Christ will have an open ear and pray and seek Gods wisdom and His guidence through the Holy Spirit then we will all see truth in the same way.

The problem lies because of denominational differences instead of scriptural truths and knowledge of truths revealed by the Holy Spirit in us through the word.

If any one has something to add, please do so! These issues have caused great division in the body of Christ and I do not want it to be so here.

We on this forum have handled all with love and care. I hope to see it stay that way!
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Re: Most Controversial Issues In The Church Today

Postby Remnant » 11 Dec 2008, 23:22

I would like to take these one at a time!

1. The Doctrine of Salvation! Can a person Lose their salvation?

No and Here is some of the reasons why!

A. GOD THE FATHER WILL KEEP US SAVED

1. The purpose of God is to keep us. “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified” (Roman 8:30).

2. The power of God can keep us. “For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day” (2 Tim. 1:12). “Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy” (Jude 1:24). Grace is all that God is able to do.

3. The love of God will keep us.
a. Love is something God is!! So God will always love us and keep us.
b. Selected us in love. “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love” (Ephesians 1:4).
c. Shows us His love. “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

4. The Father will keep us because of the prayers of His Son. “Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are” (John 17:11). “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me” (John 17:24).

5. The gift of eternal life from God lasts forever. “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

B. WE WILL BE KEPT SAVED BECAUSE OF THE SON

1. Redemption. We have eternal life because the price has been paid. “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot” (1 Peter 1:18-19).

2. Righteousness. We have the righteousness of Christ. “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

3. Propitiation. The judgment against us has been satisfied. “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:1, 2).

4. Substitute. Christ took our place for sin. “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me” (Galatians 2:20).

5. Resurrection. We were raised with Christ. “Even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:5, 6).

6. Advocacy. Christ prays for us when we sin. “Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them” (Hebrews 7:25).


C. WE WILL BE KEPT SAVED BECAUSE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

1. Regeneration. Just as we get physical life at our first birth, we get eternal spiritual life at our second birth. “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again” (John 3:7). “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life” (1 John 5:12).

2. Indwelling. You will be kept because the Holy Spirit indwells you. “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?” (1 Corinthians 6:19).

3. Baptism. You will be kept because you were placed in Christ by the Holy Spirit. “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body (Christ’s body); and have been all made to drink into one Spirit” (1 Corinthians 12:13).

4. Sealing. You will be kept because the Holy Spirit has sealed you. “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13). No one who can break the seal, because no one is mightier than the Holy Spirit.

There are scripture after scriptures that assures one of eternal security and salvation in the Lord.

The one that I believe is the most significant one of all is in John 3:3-8
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

If one is truly saved then something takes place that God does through the regeneration process of being born again. The indwelling Holy Spirit comes in and lives in us to convict, to guide and to change us. We cannot unto what the God the Holy Spirit does in us. We cannot and will never be able to unborn what the Holy Spirit births in us because it is His doing and not ours. Old things have passed away behold, all things have become new, We are new creations in Christ Jesus.
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Re: Most Controversial Issues In The Church Today

Postby Jeani » 11 Dec 2008, 23:59

Yelp! Once saved always saved!

There's no way I could keep myself saved except for Christ keeping me saved!

Thank you, Jesus!
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Re: Most Controversial Issues In The Church Today

Postby Remnant » 14 Dec 2008, 23:20

Now for the second question!

2. The Doctrine of Hell!
Is it eternal and forever?
Some say it is not!


I say Yes, It is eternal! It is Forever!

Jesus says in Matthew 25:41: ". . . Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING fire, . . ."

Rev. 14:11: "The smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up for EVER AND EVER: and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT."

Hell has a everlasting fire — Matthew18:8, 25:41
Hell is a place of everlasting punishment — Matthew 25:46

Hell is a place of eternal damnation — Mark 3:29
Hell is a place of eternal judgment — Hebrews 6:2
Hell is a place of eternal fire — Jude 1:7
Hell has a unquenchable fire — Matthew 3:12
the fire that never shall be quenched — Mark 9:43, 44, 45, 46, 48
fire unquenchable — Luke 3:17
Hell is were darkness is reserved for ever — 2 Peter 2:17
the blackness of darkness for ever — Jude 1:13

Anyone who teaches that hell is not everlasting might as well tear the pages of scripture in Luke where Jesus gives us a glimps of what hell will be like.

In Luke 16:22-28 Jesus Christ gives a frightening picture of hell:

22 . . . the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seethe Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receiveth thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Oh yes hell is forever for those who reject Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Matthew 22:13, ...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:41-42,
The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whore mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Psalm 9:17
, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Isaiah 14:99-11, 15 (referring to Lucifer), Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stereth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Daniel 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt.
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Re: Most Controversial Issues In The Church Today

Postby Remnant » 26 Dec 2008, 04:35

Now! 3. Doctrine of The Holy Spirit and the Gifts!
Some say that all believers should speak or pray in tongues.

To expound upon this one doctrine without full consideration of many aspects of the Holy Spirit would be wrong. So the first thing I would like to establish, is what I believe concerning:

Part A. The receiving of the Holy Spirit!
The Apostle Paul clearly taught that we receive the Holy Spirit the moment we believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior.
1 Corinthians 12:13 declares, "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free - and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."
Romans 8:9 tells us that if a person does not possess the Holy Spirit, he or she does not belong to Christ - "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." Ephesians 1:13-14 teaches us that the Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation for all those who believe, "Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory."

These three Scriptures make it clear that the Holy Spirit must be received at the moment of salvation. Paul could not say that we all were baptized by one Spirit and all given one Spirit to drink if not all of the Corinthian believers possessed the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9 is even stronger. If a person does not have the Spirit, he does not belong to Christ. Therefore, the possession of the Spirit is an identifying factor of the possession of salvation. Further, the Holy Spirit could not be the “seal of salvation” (Ephesians 1:13-14) if He is not received at the moment of salvation. Many Scriptures make it abundantly clear that our salvation is secured the moment we receive Christ as Savior.

There is no need for:

1. Special requests or 'tarrying' for the Holy Spirit.

This is because:
Some Christians misinterpret the historical event of Pentecost. After Christ returned to heaven there was a short period where the disciples were left 'alone' before the Holy Spirit came to earth. They waited and prayed in expectation of the coming of the Holy Spirit. However, after the initial outpouring of the Spirit, first to the Jews, then the Samaritans, and finally the Gentiles, there no longer remained any need to 'wait' or ask for the Holy Spirit to come as He was already on earth and remains today, convicting the world of sin and regenerating and indwelling all who place faith in Christ.

There is no need for:
2. Laying on of hands to receive the spirit.

This is because:
This again goes back to a failure to study the bible in context. The bible clearly teaches that the 'gift' or 'baptism' of the Holy Spirit, (both synonymous terms), is received by faith alone. (Acts 10:44-48; Galatians 3:2, 3:14)

As the apostle Paul said, "There is one body and one Spirit - just as you were called to one hope when you were called - one Lord, one faith, one baptism." (Ephesians 4:4-5) All Christians have been baptised with one baptism. Not all with water, not all with laying on of hands, but all with the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ. This is the only baptism that is essential to all Christians regardless of cultural or denominational practices.


What does being "filled with the Holy Spirit" mean?


This is another term that can have various meanings and cause great confusion. The word "filling" has the unfortunate effect of likening the Holy Spirit to a liquid-type substance that has to be continually poured into us as though refilling the gas tank of a car. This is clearly an incorrect definition of what the term 'filling' means. Although the word 'filling' is not perhaps the best choice of words, it can be used to describe the level of work that the Holy Spirit is doing in the Christian's life. When a person becomes a Christian the Holy Spirit comes to indwell them. At that stage, and from then on, the Holy Spirit is completely present and whole. We can use the word "filling", not to describe how much of the Holy Spirit is in us (as if it were possible to "chop up" the Spirit into fractions), but instead describe to what degree we are living the fullness of the new life in Christ that the Holy Spirit brings. This fullness is dependant solely on our submission to the Holy Spirit's leadership in our lives.

Look for part B. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues)
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Re: Most Controversial Issues In The Church Today

Postby Remnant » 29 Dec 2008, 21:48

Part B Of 3. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues)

I believe that all gifts of the Holy Spirit is still in operation based on and according to 1 Corinthians 12,13,14.

The biggest problem I see in the church concerning spiritual gifts is the misuse and self manifestation of gifts. The gifts that I see greatly distorted and falsely used are; tongues, words of knowledge, prophecy, and healing gifts. All four of these are greatly abused and misused.

If any truly saved person steps out of the guidelines of scripture concerning spiritual gifts then they have done a great disservice to the body of Christ and to themselves.

As Christians, we must rely upon the word of God as our only guide and rule of faith, recognizing that man has surely laid his foundation on the sand when following the subjectivity of human experience. As is usually the case, personal feelings are misleading and often fatal. The Bible is clear in its warning to Christians concerning the many false teachers in the world (1 John 4: 1). Furthermore, it is evident that many will be lost at judgement who thought they had prophesied, cast out demons, and done many mighty works in the name of Jesus (Matthew 7:22,23). And finally, the Scriptures state that some will be lost because they did not love the truth, but instead believed all the deception of wickedness, that is, “power” and “signs” and “wonders” (II Thessalonians 2:9-12).

Now concerning speaking in tongues:
Let's begin our look, now, at 1 Corinthians 14. I'm going to divide the chapter into three parts: The Position of the Gift of Tongues--Secondary (vv. 1-19), The Purpose of the Gift of Tongues--A Sign (vv. 20-25), and The Procedure of the Gift of Tongues--Systematic (vv. 26-40).

I. THE POSITION OF THE GIFT OF TONGUES: SECONDARY (vv. 1-19)

In the first nineteen verses of 1 Corinthians 14, Paul establishes that the position of the gift of tongues is secondary relative to the other gifts--specifically, the gift of prophecy. He gives three reasons to support this. Let's look at the first one:

A. Prophecy Edifies The Entire Congregation (vv. 1-5)

The gift of tongues is secondary to the gift of prophecy because tongues cannot edify and prophecy can. You say, "So what!" Well, what is the purpose of the church when it meets together? Its purpose is edification. At the end of 14:26 Paul says, "...Let all things be done unto edifying." At the end of 14:12 Paul tells the Corinthians to "seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church." In other words, the purpose of the church when it meets together is edification. Throughout chapter 14 this same concept is repeated over and over again. For example, verse 4 says, "...he that prophesieth edifieth the church." Verse 5 says, "...that the church may receive edifying." Verse 31 says, "...all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted." The point is this: The church is to come together for edification--to be built up. So Paul says, "Look, tongues cannot edify--especially the counterfeit kind that you have. But prophecy edifies the whole congregation." That's the basic proposition of the first five verses.

1. THE PURSUIT OF PROPHECY (v. 1)

"Follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy."

a. "Follow after love..."

This phrase is really the end of chapter 13, isn't it? Paul's really saying, "I've just told you about love--the greatest thing there is. That's what you ought to chase." In 12:31, which is best translated as an indicative because of the context, Paul is actually saying to the Corinthians, "You're coveting the showy gifts, but I show you a more excellent way. You're busy chasing the ego-building, up- front, dramatic gifts, but I want to show you a better way-- seek love." Then he gives them a great statement on love in chapter 13, which is almost parenthetical. In 14:1, he picks up where he left off in chapter 12 and says, "Now, if you're going to earnestly seek something, then earnestly seek love."

The phrase "follow after" is the Greek word dioko, which means "to chase, to run after, to pursue." Oftentimes it is translated "to persecute." It is to be so vehement, so excited, and so energized, that you literally persecute it and dog its steps. So Paul says, "If you're going to chase, follow, or run after something, let it be love. But at the same time...

b. "...and desire spiritual gifts..."

Literally it says, "...but continue desiring spirituals...." The word "desire," because of the context, should be translated as a continuous imperative. And the word translated "and" (Gk. de), would be better translated "but," as a contrast rather than a statement of equivalent ideas. In other words, Paul is saying, "You are pursuing the showy gifts instead of pursuing love. But don't stop pursuing spiritual gifts, because you should want the ministry of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Spirit. I'm not saying don't have anything to do with gifts. I'm just saying to pursue love and continue to seek the spiritual realm, the realm of the operation of the Holy Spirit, the true things that the Spirit of God is doing."

c. "...but rather [lit. `most of all'] that ye may prophesy."

You see, tongues are secondary. Paul is saying, "When you come together to worship, instead of having the chaos, confusion, and gibberish of tongues, you should have the clarity of prophecy."

The verb "to prophesy" in the Greek is propheteuo. It comes from the two words pro, which means "before," and phemi, which means "to speak." Literally, then, the verb propheteuo means "to speak before." To prophesy is to speak before somebody else. That's what I do every Sunday from the pulpit--prophesy. You say, "I thought to prophesy meant to predict the future." No. The idea of predicting the future never came along until the Middle Ages when the English word took on that meaning. That isn't its intention in the Greek. Propheteuo simply means "to speak before somebody." So Paul says, "Instead of everybody shouting at the same time in ecstatic gibberish, somebody ought to stand up before everybody else and speak the Word of God." You see, that's what ought to be going on. The speaking of those who speak the voice of God ought to take the place of the chaos and confusion of tongues.

Now, there were times in the early church when the gift of prophecy was revelatory. And there were also times when the gift involved reiterating revelation that had already been given. But the point that I want to make here is that the church is to come together to hear the Word of God spoken-- not to hear an ecstatic and emotional free-for-all. All things are to be done to edify. We are to gather to hear God speak to us through men who have been given the gift of preaching and teaching. So Paul says, "More than seeking tongues, you should seek that which is intelligible-- prophecy."

The obvious reason for the inferiority of tongues is that nobody could understand what was being said. The only time the gift of tongues was ever to be used was when there was somebody present who could understand what was being said, or when there was a connection to be made to Pentecost (such as in the repeated occasions in Acts). The gift of tongues was a sign gift, and was never intended for edification. In fact, tongues were useless to edify the church by themselves. Edification could only come when tongues were interpreted by someone who understood what was being said or by someone with the gift of interpretation. However, its purpose was not edification. Its purpose was as a sign to show that God was speaking and that the prophets and Apostles of the New Testament were truly representatives of the voice of God.

---

2. THE PERVERSION OF TONGUES (v. 2)

"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God [lit. `a god']; for no man understandeth him; however, in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."

a. The Principal Purpose Violated

What Paul is saying is this: "You people with your pagan ecstasies are not doing what all spiritual gifts were given to do--minister (or speak) to men. Rather, you are all wrapped up in speaking pagan mysteries in ecstatic speech to a god. Nobody can even understand what you're saying!" Paul's not referring to the mysteries (Gk. musterion) of God or the mysteries that he taught, he's referring to the mysteries of paganism.

Now let me give you a basic, bottom-line truth: All spiritual gifts are given for the purpose of ministering (or speaking) to men. No spiritual gift was ever given for the purpose of ministering to God. All spiritual gifts are given to build up the body of Christ by ministering to the members of the body. God doesn't need us to minister a spiritual gift to Him--He's not incomplete! So Paul is saying, "You have fallen down on the basic use of spiritual gifts--their use among men to build up the body. The tongues speaking that you are involved in, however, is not for men, it's for a god."

By the way, the word "God" does not have an article in the Greek (the anarthrous construction). And because of the context, I think it's better translated "a god" rather than referring to the true God. In other words, they were involved in ecstatic communication with some pagan god, and speaking in pagan mysteries. And they were violating the principal purpose of spiritual gifts--the fact that they are to be ministered to other people in the body of Christ. God certainly didn't need them to talk to Him in some ecstatic gibberish!

b. The Private Prayer Language Condemned

It's amazing to me that the modern Charismatic movement is simply repeating the same error that the Corinthian church was involved in. Charismatics teach that the essential use of tongues is as a private prayer language to God. Well, that is exactly what Paul is condemning here in this passage. Paul is saying, "You've missed the point of the true gift of tongues. This gift was designed to speak to men, like all the other gifts.

Is there biblical evidence for a private prayer language?

It was never God's intention to be addressed in a language that is incomprehensible to the speaker. I believe the Bible supports this. If you were to examine every prayer prayed in the Bible, and if you were to study every passage in the Bible which taught about prayer, you would not find anything, anywhere, anytime that even suggests that prayer should ever be unintelligible. You'll never find it. In fact, Jesus said the exact opposite. In Matthew 6:7 Jesus said, "But when ye pray, use not vain [or `meaningless'] repetitions, as the pagans do...." The phrase "vain repititions" is the Greek word battalogeo. The verb logeo means "to speak," and the prefix batta is not even a word. It is a figure of speech that in English we call an onomatopoeia--the naming of something by a vocal imitation of the sound it makes. For example, we say that a bee goes buzz, or a zipper goes zip, or a plane goes whish. Those aren't words, they're onomatopoetic figures of speech. Well, batta isn't a word either. What Jesus is literally saying in Matthew 6:7 is, "When you pray, don't say batta, batta, batta--the sound of the stammering, stuttering gibberish that the pagans offer to their gods. The Father isn't interested in that kind of communication." So, we are to pray intelligibly and "with the understanding" (1 Cor. 14:15).

When Jesus went into the Garden to pray to the Father, He didn't talk in some heavenly language. Why should you? When deity communed with deity, it was in a language that was clear. When Jesus stood by the grave of Lazarus, He prayed before He raised him from the dead. John heard every word of that prayer and wrote it down just the way He said it--clear and intelligible. John 17 is the intimate prayer between Jesus and the Father. It's all very clear--translated beautifully into English from the original language. The point is this: There is no biblical evidence whatsoever of a private prayer language! We are to pray in an intelligible, understandable way.


3. THEPRODUCTS OF PROPHECY (v. 3)

"But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort."

Paul says, "When you come together, don't seek to speak in an unknown tongue that no one even understands. Rather, seek to prophesy." Then he lists three things that will happen when the Word of God is spoken: People will be built up, people will be encouraged to a new kind of behavior, and people will be comforted in their agonies and their hurts. Instead of coming together and saying, "Batta, batta, batta," they were to hear the proclamation of the Word of God.

4. THE PROSTITUTION OF TONGUES (v. 4)

"He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself, but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."

Now, which is better? To edify oneself, or to edify the church? Well, what's the point of the whole chapter? The point of the entire chapter is the edification of the church, not edifying yourself! Listen, beloved, we were not given spiritual gifts for ourselves. If a person takes a spiritual gift, however, and uses it to edify himself, he has prostituted the gift. Why? Because it's for others. It's only to be used to build up the body of Christ.

a. The Inability of Tongues to Edify the Church

You say, "John, it says in verse 4 that you can speak in an unknown tongue and edify yourself." Well, the point is that it doesn't edify the church. You say, "But if the tongues are translated, they edify the church, don't they?" Yes, but it was the gift of interpretation that edified, not the gift of tongues. The gift of tongues was useless to edify the church, because nobody knew what was being said. You see, even if the real gift was used, it wouldn't edify anybody by itself. It would always have to be translated first. That's what he says at the end of verse 5: "...except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying."

It's wonderful to know that when the true gift of tongues was used as a sign and other Christians were present, God would always have somebody there with the gift of interpretation to interpret what was being said. Why? So that it would not go without meaning to the church. God gave the gift of interpretation so that the church would be edified. You see, God never wanted anything going on in the church that didn't edify and build up. The Corinthians, however, were using the gift in a very chaotic way. Not only that, they had determined that it would edify the church all by itself. Well, it won't!

b. The Issue of Tongues Edifying Oneself

The Corinthians' use of the gift of tongues for personal edification was a second perversion. First of all, they had perverted the fact that spiritual gifts are meant for men, not God. Second, they had perverted the fact that spiritual gifts are meant for others, not for yourself.

Donald Gee, a well-known Charismatic, wrote the following statement: "...the revealed purposes of the gift of tongues are chiefly devotional, and we do well to emphasize the fact" (Concerning Spiritual Gifts [Springfield: Gospel Publishing House, 1937], p. 59). Another Charismatic, Larry Christenson, wrote, "One speaks in tongues, for the most part, in his private devotions. This is by far its most important use and value" (Speaking in Tongues and Its Significance for the Church [Minneapolis: Bethany Fellowship, 1968], p. 28). Now that is the very opposite of what Paul is saying here in 1 Corinthians. He is saying, "Your gift is not to speak to God, and it's not for you. Your gift is for others in the body. So, if you seek to edify God, or yourself, you're out of line."

When Paul says, "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself," it's possible that he's being sarcastic. So far in this epistle, Paul has already dealt with the whole idea of self-edification in a rather pointed way. For example:

1) 1 Corinthians 8:10-11--In this chapter, Paul is telling the Corinthians, "It's not wrong to eat meat offered to idols. But because there are some weak Christians who think it's wrong, don't do it--or you'll make them stumble." In verses 10-11 he says, "For if any man see thee, who hast knowledge [i.e., you're a mature Christian], sitting at the table in the idol's temple [eating the idol's meat], shall not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened [Gk. oikodomeo=`built up, edified'] to eat those things which are offered to idols, and through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish...?" In other words, it is possible to edify someone to his harm. In this case, edification would cause a weaker brother ruin.

So, edification can be for good or for bad. In chapter 14, the point is that if you use a gift to build up the church, it's for good. If you use the gift just to build yourself up, it's an act of selfishness...and that's bad. The word edify, then, can be for good or for bad, so you have to find some qualifying principles.

2) 1 Corinthians 10:23-24--Paul says, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient; all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not." Edify who? Well, look at verse 24, "Let no man seek his own [edification], but every man another's [edification]." Do you see the point? Paul is saying, "All things might be okay for you, but don't do them because they're okay for you-- do them because they're going to mean something to somebody else." That's the point of all spiritual gifts. They're not for God and they're not for you, they're for the church. So Paul says, "When you come together, instead of everybody seeking his own edification, seek to love one another." Why? Because love "seeketh not its own" (1 Cor. 13:5). Gifts are not supposed to be directed to God, and they are not for self-edification.

What is Paul saying here in 1 Corinthians 14? He's telling them, "Tongues can't edify the church. Furthermore, if you have the true gift of tongues and you use it on your own for self-edification, you're misusing the gift. Use it for what God intended. Otherwise, even if you were able to speak with the tongues of men and of angels, if you are seeking your own edification, you don't have love. And without love, you're nothing more than sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal."

5. THE PLACE OF TONGUES (v. 5)

Now finally in this section, Paul balances his strong words on the secondary nature and the uselessness of tongues to edify, by acknowledging that there was a true gift of tongues and that it did have a true place.

a. The Emphasis of Hyperbole (v. 5a)

"I would that ye all spoke with tongues..."

You say, "Why did Paul say that?" Well, the Charismatics interpret it to say that Paul wanted everyone to speak in tongues. However, we have to take this statement of Paul's in light of other passages here in 1 Corinthians. For example, in 12:30 Paul says, "Have all the gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?" What's the answer implied by the Greek construction? No! And in 12:11 he says, "But all these [gifts] worketh that one and the very same Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will." You say, "Why does Paul say, `I wish you all spoke in tongues,' if he knows they can't?" Well, I believe that he is talking in hyperbole. Let me show you why.

In 1 Corinthians 7:1-6, Paul talks about marriage as a good thing. Then in verse 7 he says, "For I would that all men were even as I myself...." In other words, "I wish you were all single." Now is that an actual divine mandate? No. That's wishing the impossible for the sake of emphasis-- which is exactly what Paul is doing in 1 Corinthians 14. He's saying, "Hey, I'm not downplaying the gift of tongues. I wish that everybody could have the real gift. But we know, of course, that that isn't possible." You see, Paul is using hyperbole as an emphasis. He's balancing off his strong words denying the primacy of tongues to emphasize the fact that there is a true gift.

b. The Excellence of Prophecy (v. 5b)

"...but rather that ye prophesied; for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying."

Paul says, "If I had my way it would be fine if everybody spoke in tongues; but if everybody was a proclaimer with the gift of prophecy, that would be even better!" But that isn't going to happen either, is it? Now, why does Paul say that prophesying is greater than speaking in tongues? Because unless tongues are interpreted, they don't do any good to the church.

In fact, those people who think they have a great thing going with a private prayer language, are severely mistaken. A private prayer language won't do anybody any good for the same reason that it won't do the church any good--there's no knowledge of what's being said. Consequently there's no learning in the mind, and it's nothing more than sensual ecstasy, a feeling, an emotion. Christianity, beloved, has never been predicated on a feeling...never!

Well, what does all of this say to us in our day? Basically, two things. First of all, when the church comes together it is to come together to hear the Word of God. Second, we need to be careful to prevent pagan religious forms to infiltrate the truth of God's pure church.

There's an interesting little footnote here. Notice in verse 2 and in verse 4 where it says "tongue," that the King James translators put the word "unknown" preceding it. However, notice that in verse 5 where it says "tongues," the word unknown isn't there. Do you know why? It seems that the translators put the word unknown in with the singular word tongue and left it out with the plural word tongues. It's possible that they did this because they believed that Paul was using the singular to refer to the ecstatic gibberish (which was all one kind--gibberish) and the plural to refer to the true gift (which would have been responsible for many languages [cf. Ac. 2:6]). So in verses 1-4 he's saying, "Your false gift is all wrong." But in verse 5 he's saying, "The true gift is all right when it's used properly and interpreted."

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Re: Most Controversial Issues In The Church Today

Postby Remnant » 03 Jan 2009, 14:03

4. Doctrine of Angels!Some say that Demons at one time procreated with humans and they believe in the Nephilim!

I have stated my views on this many times. I feel that the Nephilim belief of the giants in Geneses 6:4 are demons and they procreated with humans is totally unbiblical and nothing but a hoax and deception from the devil to get our eyes off what Jesus did on the cross and the finished work of His death, burial and resurrection.

Please refer to this post for a better understanding of the Doctrine of angels:
the-doctrine-of-angels-t521.html?hilit=Doctrine%20of%20angels

And here for the Doctrine of demons:
the-doctrine-of-demons-t512.html?hilit=Doctrine%20of%20angels

And here concerning the doctrin of Satan:

the-doctrine-of-satan-t511.html?hilit=Doctrine%20of%20angels

What were Niphilim?
that-angels-can-procreate-t504.html?hilit=Nephilim

Remnant Wrote: Mark 12:25
"For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Genesis 6:1-4 is one of the most controversial passages in the Bible. As with any difficult section of Scripture, it has been open to a wide range of interpretations. The two most prevalent interpretations are: (1) Women were having sexual relations with demonic beings (literally "sons of God," a term sometimes used for angels), and producing offspring who were part human, part demon. These mutants were said to be Nephilim, or heroes of old. (2) The "sons of God" were descendants of the godly line of Seth. Instead of remaining true to their godly heritage, they were "unequally yoked" with the ungodly line of Cain. Thus, civilization sank into depravity and subsequently was destroyed by the Flood.

I have been in ministry now over 25 years and most of that time as a pastor. Up until recently, let's say the last few years this Nephilim Hoax or false teaching would have never been taught or accepted in the churches. Their has been a move recently to propagate this teaching and I believe it is because so many celebrity preachers or prophecy teachers find it popular and it sells books or stirs the masses with a so called new revelation.

Someone recently said on another forum:


Quote:
It is a great topic to argue. However it changes little that Christ is our saviour and will keep all that put their trust in him from all harm until we spend eternity with him.


But it does change things, for Christ came to save that which is lost and He also came as savior of the world. He came as the sacrificial Lamb, He came to redeem mankind from their sin.

He did not come to save demons or fallen angels.
From this Nephilim hoax comes a false teaching that says that their is a blood line or demon seed blood line that are upon this earth today. Part human and part demon. It is also a way to explain the sudden appearances of UFOs and Alien life forms.

This is nothing more than falsehood and a lie, Other scriptures tells us that angels are also terrestrial beings. They are neither male nor female. They are spirits. Hebrews 1:14

They can appear as humans but they are still spirits. 2 Kings 6:15-17).



Nephilim are Simply giant offsprings of men, not demons or angels.

Genesis 6: 1-4

1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

The term 'sons of God' is replaced by 'fallen angels' as if the Holy Spirit had chosen to obscure the truth by referring to them as being God's children rather than just say 'fallen angel'.

3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Notice that there is no mention at all here of any fallen angels having corrupted man by way of their sexual escapades which is something that could not possibly be overlooked as if such was some kind of non issue.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The Nephilim (giants) were there before the sons of God had children and so giantism wouldn't indicate anything as regards angels having sex even if you consider those sons of God to be 'fallen angels' because such giants (Nephilim) existed prior to those sons of God having taken wives. We are told that the children of the sons of God became mighty men, men of renown, while there is no mention at all here concerning their being half angel and half man; something that would be plainly stated if such were actually the case. Nothing is said about those children having any supernatural abilities. And there is not even a hint given anywhere in the scriptures to indicate that those giants (Nephilim) or their children had any angel-like abilities. So we see that there is really no supportive evidence for that hybridism doctrine to be found in these passages. There is not even a single verse anywhere in scripture where any man is said to have had an angel for a father. Neither is there any genealogy record whereby those alleged sons of Satan, according to the flesh, could be identified as such. It would have been one very wild old dating game back then because how would women know who was who so as to avoid marrying a part-devil creature? That would have made it rather difficult to maintain the so called genetic purity needed in order to preserve a line by which to bring God's Son into the world.

Problem: All men were spiritually polluted by sin yet the Lord still came into the world. Was Mary chosen of the Lord because she was sinless or was exceptionally pure as regards genetics? Strange in that the prohibition that the Lord gave in regards to His people marrying pagans was based on the fact that such would lead His people astray. He never mentioned purity in regards to breeding as being a factor. It is often said the use of the word 'tamiym' (perfect) in reference to Noah meant that he was genetically pure; however when the word is used in regards to fleshly perfection, usually in regard to sacrifices, it is never used in the sense that only special stock is to be employed; it only refers to animals that have not been maimed or have obvious defects in them. There is absolutely no basis at all for suggesting that breeding was a factor in those sacrifices being esteemed 'perfect'. Never once did the Lord say that only a certain breed of dove, or lamb, was to be used. The context in which 'tamiym' is used in reference to Noah suggests moral perfection in any case. Men of every manner of infirmity and genetic disorder are being saved so how does that accord with that alleged 'genetic purity' doctrine?

So far there are more gaps in this theory than are perhaps found in the genealogical record as pertains to evolution. But we are not quite finished yet. Here is the second of the three sets of scripture passages commonly used to support 'fallen angel and man' hybridism.

2 Peter 2: 4-6

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

There is no mention above that the sin of those angels was sex. So there is actually no support for the hybridism doctrine to be found there at all. The word 'hell' is translated from the original word 'Tartarus' which means simply that they were bound in the very depths of darkness. The word is also used in Greek mythology where it means, 'the dark abode of woe, the pit of darkness in the unseen world' which is derived from the Babylonian concept of the underworld where the most wicked of spirits were believed to have dwelt. Jesus stated that He was in Heaven while He was standing on the earth; so why can't Satan be in the very depths of darkness while he is also upon the earth? Every fallen angel, including Satan, is bound up and chained by darkness and dwells in a pit of gloom. That is why the demons pleaded with Jesus to allow them to go into the pigs rather than their being cut off from this world altogether. (Notice that their reprieve didn't last long because the pigs ran directly into the sea and were drowned.) Whenever I run into a nasty spirit I usually ask the Lord to toss it down into the spiritual pit where it properly belongs. Notice it says chains of darkness and not chains of iron like unto those used to imprison Satan during the thousand year Millennium. And note that Satan was not only chained with iron chains, and with a seal placed upon him in order to keep him in that pit; but that the angel of God also had the key to the pit itself. Rev. 20: 1-3 How's that for security?

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Note the order above namely 'angels who sinned' being cast down to hell and then later the people of 'Sodom and Gomorrha'.

Now finally the last section of scripture that is misinterpreted in favour of this doctrine.

Jude

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Here we are told that the angels who failed to remain true to the Lord are reserved under chains of darkness. There is no mention of any sexual sin as regards to those angels. Would faithful angels having witnessed Satan's fall from heaven be so forgetful that they would have left heaven anyway to come to earth because they found women so enchanting that they just couldn't help themselves? As for the words as found in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ concerning the one third part of angels being drawn down with Satan take note that such happened before Jesus came into the world (Rev. 12:4a) which destroys the doctrine concerning that event being something that takes place in the future.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Here the same order is found that Peter used in his warning as regards wickedness, namely that the angels were previously cast down for their rebellion just as those wicked people of Sodom and Gomorrha were themselves. Note carefully that the term 'in like manner' refers to the cities about Sodom and Gomorrha as being similarly wicked and so that specific term doesn't even point back to the angels in the preceding verse. The term 'in like manner' already has an object namely those surrounding cities. The theme being covered here is one of rebellion against the Lord in any form and that if angels couldn't avoid judgement and neither did those who similarly lived after a wicked manner, then the evil men who are the main topic under consideration wouldn't be able to escape either. In addition the men of Sodom as the name suggests were not primarily known for their going after women which destroys the like manner concept altogether as relates to the fallen angels, who after all, according to the hybridism doctrine obviously preferred women.

Fact: The Babylonians and Persians both believed in a hierarchy of fallen angels that they had given names to. They also believed that those fallen angels taught men science.

Fact: God's word doesn't give a list of angels who rebelled and God's word doesn't teach that fallen angels taught men science.

Fact: After the Jews were exposed to the religions of those people above a teaching was found among them based on questionable writings that mention fallen angels by name and also claimed that they taught men science.

Conclusion: The pseudepigraphical writings used to bolster the Nephilim hybrid teaching are based on mythological beliefs as held to by pagans.

So you see the so called proof for the angel-man hybrid teaching is actually just a clever shell game with some added on smoke and mirrors.
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Re: Most Controversial Issues In The Church Today

Postby the49er » 10 Jan 2009, 11:20

Remnant wrote:1. The Doctrine of Salvation!
Can a person Lose their salvation? Some say yes!

I believe that as long as we have faith, we have our salvation. I do believe that we can loose or give up our faith.
Faith is the link to salvation. "16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2. The Doctrine of Hell!
Is it eternal and forever?
Some say it is not!


3. Doctrine of The Holy Spirit and the Gifts!
Some say that all believers should speak or pray in tongues!

This one is personal for me. When I was saved, it was into a pentecostal church and everyone"said" I should speak in tongues when I recieved the Holy Spirit and they prayed over me quite a bit, but it did not happen for a while and when it did it did not feel natural, this caused me quite a bit of concern. Then one day during services the Lord hit me with a prophesy in tongues where "I gave the message to the church" (more like being taken over,WOW) This to me was God showing me that the tonges were a real thing and would not feel unnatural when it was real. So for my personal opinion, they are not any kind of a requirement.

4. Doctrine of Angels!
Some say that Demons at one time procreatated with humans and they believe in the Nephilim!

I also believe that Gen 6 "sons of God" were fallen angles.
Gen6: 4. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
this indicates to me that the cause of these giants was the intermixing of something not human, and reading about these giants in the bible tells me that these were not just big people they were in the 12ft tall region, OG's bed was 13 and a half foot long x 6 feet wide.


5. Bible Prophecy Concerning The End Times (The Rapture)
Pre-Trib, Post-Trib and Mid-trib and Pre-Wrath. Or their will be no Rapture!

I think it is mid trib, and think we leave when the 2 witnesses are resurected. But also believe, we leave when God says, so it dont make much difference to me.
I also think that the Exodus story tells us that God can protect us from the bad things right in the middle of the storm. and while I am at it, I dont think the first half of the tribulation will be near as bad as most think,antichrist will still be trying to convince the world that he is the messiah, it is at the mid point that he claims himself god and things get ugly. IMHO


I would like to invite all on this discussion and please invite others to join in.
What do you say?


:dtf


In His service, by his Grace and for His glory.

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Re: Most Controversial Issues In The Church Today

Postby Remnant » 10 Jan 2009, 19:36

the49er wrote:
Remnant wrote:1. The Doctrine of Salvation!
Can a person Lose their salvation? Some say yes!

I believe that as long as we have faith, we have our salvation. I do believe that we can loose or give up our faith.
Faith is the link to salvation. "16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2. The Doctrine of Hell!
Is it eternal and forever?
Some say it is not!


3. Doctrine of The Holy Spirit and the Gifts!
Some say that all believers should speak or pray in tongues!

This one is personal for me. When I was saved, it was into a pentecostal church and everyone"said" I should speak in tongues when I recieved the Holy Spirit and they prayed over me quite a bit, but it did not happen for a while and when it did it did not feel natural, this caused me quite a bit of concern. Then one day during services the Lord hit me with a prophesy in tongues where "I gave the message to the church" (more like being taken over,WOW) This to me was God showing me that the tonges were a real thing and would not feel unnatural when it was real. So for my personal opinion, they are not any kind of a requirement.

4. Doctrine of Angels!
Some say that Demons at one time procreatated with humans and they believe in the Nephilim!

I also believe that Gen 6 "sons of God" were fallen angles.
Gen6: 4. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
this indicates to me that the cause of these giants was the intermixing of something not human, and reading about these giants in the bible tells me that these were not just big people they were in the 12ft tall region, OG's bed was 13 and a half foot long x 6 feet wide.


5. Bible Prophecy Concerning The End Times (The Rapture)
Pre-Trib, Post-Trib and Mid-trib and Pre-Wrath. Or their will be no Rapture!

I think it is mid trib, and think we leave when the 2 witnesses are resurected. But also believe, we leave when God says, so it dont make much difference to me.
I also think that the Exodus story tells us that God can protect us from the bad things right in the middle of the storm. and while I am at it, I dont think the first half of the tribulation will be near as bad as most think,antichrist will still be trying to convince the world that he is the messiah, it is at the mid point that he claims himself god and things get ugly. IMHO


I would like to invite all on this discussion and please invite others to join in.
What do you say?


:dtf


In His service, by his Grace and for His glory.

49er


49er, I may have asked this before, but are you a he or a she and do you have a name we may call you other than your tag name. It would be easier for me. I guess it is my southern upbringing to call people by their given name! :wlol

Thanks for your honesty and responce!
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Re: Most Controversial Issues In The Church Today

Postby Remnant » 10 Jan 2009, 21:43

Finnally:

5. Bible Prophecy Concerning The End Times (The Rapture)
Pre-Trib, Post-Trib and Mid-trib and Pre-Wrath. Or their will be no Rapture!

If you read the rules of this forum anyone can see that i am of course pre-trib and my belief on this did not just suddenly happen nor was it ever based on what I have heard from other preachers but from my many, many years of study of scripture.

At one time, I had began to look into mid trib or pre wrath and the more I studied and tried to find scripture that might lead to this belief, I found myself going back to the sound doctrine or pre tribulation and the rapture of the church.

Anyone that carefully studies, teaches and lives, looking for the return of our Lord will eventually come to the same conclusion.
I agree with Jeani on this wholeheartedly.

I believe it so strongly that I have set rules concerning it.

13. You may Discuss, but do not promote Mid or Post Tribulation, Pre Wrath, Preterism, or Replacement theology. This board is traditional Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and Pre-Millennial Dispensational in our position of End Times Prophecy. We also believe in a literal 7 year Tribulation period, after the instantaneous Rapture of all regenerated believers in unison, during which God finishes His discipline of Israel and finalizes His judgments on the unbelieving world. Our Lord Jesus Christ told us that we won't know the day or hour of His return and to always be ready keeping watch.


So it is evident on how I feel concerning the end times prophecy about the rapture.

The rapture or the taking up of the church is a separate event found in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

This will take place before the great day of the wrath of the Lord and is promised to the glorious church, the Bride of Christ.

The second coming of the Lord is a different event and all eyes will see this, where with the rapture only the church will see the Lord when He comes.

This can be found in Revelation 19
Revelation 19:11-21

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. (The Bride of Christ, Thats Me, You who have trusted and accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior)
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,

18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free[i] and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
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Re: Most Controversial Issues In The Church Today

Postby the49er » 11 Jan 2009, 01:47

quote="Remnant"]

49er, I may have asked this before, but are you a he or a she and do you have a name we may call you other than your tag name. It would be easier for me. I guess it is my southern upbringing to call people by their given name! :wlol

Thanks for your honesty and responce![/quote]

Hi Frank,

Yes we did talk about it and I am a 58 yr old man. and my name is Rick

Rick "the49er" and just for the record "the49er" is from my gold mining days.
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