Christ First Forum

The Great Evangelist, Vance Havner said: If I had only one sermon to preach, It would be the Lordship of Christ. When we get right on this point, we are right all down the Line.

Phillipans 2:8-11
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
If this be the case, Then why wait!

What do you say? Must Jesus be Lord in order for one to have salvation?

Frank asked: What do you say? Must Jesus be Lord in order for one to have salvation?

Frank, you know how to pick a 'hard' one!

These scriptures come to my mind after talking with my husband.

John 20:24~
Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.

The other disciples therefore said to him, 'We have seen the Lord." So he said to them, 'Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.

And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst and said, 'Peace to you.'

Then He said to Thomas, Reach your finger here, and look at My hands, and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving but believing.

And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!

Jesus said to him, Thomas because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

Upon salvation, one accepts the Lord as Savior; however, I don't believe Christ becomes 'Lord of their life" until afterwards.

I personally believe it's spiritual growth to make the Lord the Lord of my life which I personally did.

Romans 9:10
That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

This scripture tells me that I must confess Him as my Lord!
Paul told the Philippian Jailer, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thy shall be saved.

Saviour only occurs twenty four times in the New Testament, While the word Lord appears 433 times.

When we a born again, Who indwells in our life and lives in us? Jesus, Lord, Master or just saviour? Paul said it is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me. Does He ever stop being Lord?

The word of God knows nothing of that individual who is willing to accept Jesus as Saviour and not take Him as Lord! He has not only become saviour of our soul but He becomes Lord of our life. He is active, Living, working to make us more like Him daily.

The bible says; Where the Spirit of the Lord is, their is freedom. Who gives us freedom? Jesus! The Lord our God.

We sing He is Lord, He is Lord, He is risen from the dead and He is Lord!

We have only one option: we can receive Jesus as Lord or reject Him But once we receive Him, our option ends. We are then no longer our own but bought with a heavy price. We Now belong to Him. He has the first word and the Last. He is the author and finisher of our faith. He demands absolute loyalty beyond that of any earthly person or thing. He has the right to demand that. His love is so amazing, so divine. He requires of me my all. When we come to Jesus, it is either all or nothing.

How foolish it is to say, Nobody is going to tell me how much to give of myself or what to do. We have already been told we are His and His word is final.

When I gave my Life to Christ in October of 1982 I came under new management. I belonged to Him and He was my Lord!

The modern day churches are full with baptzed unsaved people living double lives, fearing the Lord and serving their own gods. drawing close to God with their mouths and Honoring Him with their lips while their hearts are far from Him, calling Him Lord, Lord, while they do not what He says do.

He is either all of Him or none of Him! He is King Of Kings and Lord Of Lords. Master, Savior, Almighty God!

Yes, I understand what you are saying Frank, but I do know that scriptures tells us when we are saved we are a new born baby.

A baby doesn't understand immediately, but with the Word they mature.

We accept Jesus as Lord, but I don't think we fully understand the true meaning of 'Lordship' without spiritual maturity.

Once a person accept Christ by faith, they are immediately save.

I accepted Christ what He did on the cross--not by what I do.

I don't have to make Jesus 'Lord' because He is what He is.

It's not about 'me', it's about the 'Lord.'

Yes, I understand what you are saying Frank, but I do know that scriptures tells us when we are saved we are a new born baby.

A baby doesn't understand immediately, but with the Word they mature.

True, But do we have to understand fully are do we accept Him as Lord and saviour by faith?

You quoted a scripture that reveals this!
John 20:24~
Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.

The other disciples therefore said to him, 'We have seen the Lord." So he said to them, 'Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.

And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst and said, 'Peace to you.'

Then He said to Thomas, Reach your finger here, and look at My hands, and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving but believing. And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!

v. 29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[d] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Making Jesus Lord over our life has nothing to do with our Spiritual Growth, but Our faith in Him as Lord.

Many will say in that day
" Lord , Lord, did I not CAST OUT DEMONS IN THY NAME", and I shall say " Depart from Me ,you who PRACTIC sin , I NEVER knew you"

" With their lips they profess Me, but their heart is far from Me"

Many profess Yeshua as Saviour, but few live their life that reflects He is Lord.

Many profess Yeshua as Saviour, but DENIE the power thereof, meaning they denie Him Lordship, to denie Him as Lord, is the same as dening Him as God , denie Him God of their life, He is the power thereof in which they denie Him...
These are ones that has cast out demons in His Name.. I see this as being possible, His name is above ALL names, and even one who profess's Him as Savior but denies the power thereof, Lord of their life, can speak His Name over sickness and diease, and demons .. His Name is above EVERY name in Heaven, Earth and below the earth..

I say, "IF" one is trurly saved, they will willingly have Yeshua as Lord over their life..
If Yeshua is not Lord of ones life, He was never their Saviour..

I am not trying to claim here that we will live a sinles life, nor that we will never sin, we will because we have the flesh, and the fleash is sinful, it lusts after things of the world..but we will NOT PRACTICE sin.

What is born of the Spirit, is Spirit..
What is born of the flesh, is flesh

The flesh and the spirit war one against the other..

The flesh is weak, but the spirit is willing..

God has made away of escape for us when we are tempted, the escase it the Holy Spirit within.
When we are tempted; if we yield to the flesh, we fail ( sin ) but when we yield to the Spirit, we sail

Perfection is worked out in our flesh when we yield to the Holy Spirit, we will not be sinless, but we just sin less..
We wil not be perfect , for in and of ourselves we can not be, but He who lives within , He is perfect

No one can claim to be without sin, who ever does is lying, but its the ones who practice sin, who has never made Yeshua Lord of their life, they have DENIED Him that power..the reason they denie Him as Lord of their life, is because He was never welcomed to come into their heart ..only the Lord can save, and these denied Him as Lord..
"Believe in your heart and profess Yeshua IS LORD and you shall be saved"

I say if Yeshua is not Lord, He is not Saviour, you have heard the saying " You can't have one, without the other, because They are ONE and the same..the LORD HE IS GOD.....
ISA. 45:21...have I not the Lord? and there is no God else beside me;a just God and a SAVIOUR ; there is none beside me.
Isa. 49: 26 and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy SAVIOUR and thy Redeemer,

Obedience is excepting Him right at the first as Lord and Saviour..

We grow spiritually, because we have made Yeshua Lord of our life..if all one need to do to go to Heaven is just say I want Yeshua as my Saviour, everyone could be saved, its those who denie Him as Lord, that will not be saved..
The Holy Spirit is Lord of our life, or we are, and if we think we can separate the the Lordship of Yeshua and just tell Him He is just Saviour, but you have desided He can't have the title Lord.

The Lord is the Saviour, He was Lord before He was Saviour, so how can He be one without the other..We do not have the power or anthority to tell Yeshua He is not God, therefore He does n't have the right to be Lord/God of our life.
The Lord is God...

before Savation He was denied Lord over ones life, if He is not after one profess'es His Salvation, how can He be their Saviour..

I say ' If Yeshua is not Lord of ones life, HE is not their Saviour

Frank,

I don't think we're 'disagreeing', but we're coming at the question in different viewpoints.

Of course, there is no question about Jesus being Lord.

I'm just coming at the question from the Corinthian church spoken n 1 Cor. 3.

When Paul came and preached Christ to them, they believed.

By faith they were justified and granted peace with God. (Rom 5:1-2).

No doubt Paul taught them all the blessing that came to them as Christians, what Paul called milk.

At that time their way of thinking and living was only beginning to be transformed (Rom 12:2).

They were still greatly influenced by worldly thinking and behavior--they were infants for Christ.

But the message of the Cross concerned more than justification.

It also concerned sancitification.

It called for a renewal of attitude and action in response to God's revelation.

It called for righteousness in thought and deed. (*Heb 5:11-14)

And this part of the message of Christ crucified (1 Cor 2:2), this solid food , the Corinthians had spurned.

As a result they were still worldly.

Instead of mature behavior characterized by humility and concern for others--obedience to God--the Corinthians were infantile, self centered, and divisive.

They wanted lives of exaltation without lives of humiliation because they did not understand that Christ crucified was a message concerned not only with justification but also with sanctification.

They were not living as if Jesus was 'Lord of their life.'

Yet scripture said they believed, and by faith they were justified.

....and my understanding of the scripture Mat 7:21 is referring to those Jesus never knew.

And then I will declare to them, I never knew you, depart from Me you who practice lawlessness.

Jeani, We all from time to time live as if Jesus is not Lord, but when we give our life to Him, we either accept him as Lord or not. He works in us to transform us because He is Lord. Their is no room for Me to occupy the throne and Jesus at the same time. I know that He is Lord of your life! Did he become Lord of your life the more you matured, the less you sinned or did you accept Him as Lord when you were saved? I believe the latter.

Here is the Problem of today in most churches. We have a host of people who have accepted Christ in order to go to heaven, or to miss hell who seem not at all concerned with making Him Lord of their lives.
Salvation is not a cafeteria line where people can take the Saviourhood of Christ and pass up His Lordship. We can't take what we want and leave the rest. We do not get saved on an installment plan. We don't know fully what is involved at conversion, but no man can knowingly and wilfully take Christ as Saviour and reject Him as Lord and be saved.

I may be wrong, but I personally believe like Vance Havner

That When we get right on this point, we are right all down the Line.

Remnant wrote:Jeani, We all from time to time live as if Jesus is not Lord, but when we give our life to Him, we either accept him as Lord or not. He works in us to transform us because He is Lord. Their is no room for Me to occupy the throne and Jesus at the same time. I know that He is Lord of your life! Did he become Lord of your life the more you matured, the less you sinned or did you accept Him as Lord when you were saved? I believe the latter.

Here is the Problem of today in most churches. We have a host of people who have accepted Christ in order to go to heaven, or to miss hell who seem not at all concerned with making Him Lord of their lives.
Salvation is not a cafeteria line where people can take the Saviourhood of Christ and pass up His Lordship. We can't take what we want and leave the rest. We do not get saved on an installment plan. We don't know fully what is involved at conversion, but no man can knowingly and wilfully take Christ as Saviour and reject Him as Lord and be saved.

I may be wrong, but I personally believe like Vance Havner

That When we get right on this point, we are right all down the Line.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world tht He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but tht the world through Him might be saved.

At fifteen years old, I 'believe' God sent His Son into the world to die for my sins so that I would have everlasting life.

On my side, the free gift is simply to be received, not earned.

I was saved by believing, by trusting in Christ.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Faith is not a work. It does not merit salvation; it is only the means by which I accepted God's free salvation.

I'm saved by the source of God's grace for it is the gift of God.

I did nothing, but believe, accept, and was saved by what Christ did on the cross.

Christ did it all for ~me~

Jeani wrote:John 3:16
For God so loved the world tht He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but tht the world through Him might be saved.

At fifteen years old, I 'believe' God sent His Son into the world to die for my sins so that I would have everlasting life.

On my side, the free gift is simply to be received, not earned.

I was saved by believing, by trusting in Christ.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Faith is not a work. It does not merit salvation; it is only the means by which I accepted God's free salvation.

I'm saved by the source of God's grace for it is the gift of God.

I did nothing, but believe, accept, and was saved by what Christ did on the cross.

Christ did it all for ~me~

He is All things to you, because you have made Him Lord of your life my sweet Sister in Christ Yeshua


I Love You

Accepting Christ Jesus as Lord is not an option.

Once we believe Jesus is Who the Word tells us He is, and we tell God we want Christ as our Saviour, He is automatically our Lord. God made that decision in eternity past, so this takes that option off the table.

We can not make Christ anything, and certainly not Lord. We must remember He is Lord whether or not we believe in Him.

That verse that says every knee shall bow to Him indicates this is a fact.

Remnant wrote:
Phillipans 2
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
If this be the case, Then why wait!

We wait because we each have free will. We can decide either for, or against accepting Christ as Saviour. We are given every opportunity to decide for Him, then should one decide they do not want Him as Saviour, they determine their own fate of eternal damnation, instead of eternal LIFE!

What do you say? Must Jesus be Lord in order for one to have salvation?

Absolutely! Why? Because as I said above - He is Lord regardless of any decision we make. God decreed it!

Jeani wrote:Frank,

I don't think we're 'disagreeing', but we're coming at the question in different viewpoints.

Of course, there is no question about Jesus being Lord.

I'm just coming at the question from the Corinthian church spoken n 1 Cor. 3.

When Paul came and preached Christ to them, they believed.

By faith they were justified and granted peace with God. (Rom 5:1-2).

No doubt Paul taught them all the blessing that came to them as Christians, what Paul called milk.

At that time their way of thinking and living was only beginning to be transformed (Rom 12:2).

They were still greatly influenced by worldly thinking and behavior--they were infants for Christ.

But the message of the Cross concerned more than justification.

It also concerned sancitification.

It called for a renewal of attitude and action in response to God's revelation.

It called for righteousness in thought and deed. (*Heb 5:11-14)

And this part of the message of Christ crucified (1 Cor 2:2), this solid food , the Corinthians had spurned.

As a result they were still worldly.

Instead of mature behavior characterized by humility and concern for others--obedience to God--the Corinthians were infantile, self centered, and divisive.

They wanted lives of exaltation without lives of humiliation because they did not understand that Christ crucified was a message concerned not only with justification but also with sanctification.

They were not living as if Jesus was 'Lord of their life.'

Yet scripture said they believed, and by faith they were justified.

....and my understanding of the scripture Mat 7:21 is referring to those Jesus never knew.

And then I will declare to them, I never knew you, depart from Me you who practice lawlessness.

Jeani,
It appears that you understand that Jesus is Lord - regardless.

It also appears that you are saying that we start our Christian experience as a baby and that we must grow from there into a mature Christian. This is the way our 'natural' life progresses and it does apply to our Spiritual growth as well. We all have a starting point in our Spiritual growth in Christ, and sticking with it, learning and applying the Word to our thoughts and putting them into effect in our decision making on everything we do brings on the maturity we need. Once this is in effect, we, as an individual, become a part of a pivot that is, in its maturity, able to support this nation as unto God. That is the way it was in years past, but has since been lost, and is why the USA, as a whole, is now in so much trouble.

Misfit wrote: "We can not make Christ anything, and certainly not Lord. We must remember He is Lord whether or not we believe in Him."

Well said Misfit! I've heard it said that "I've made Christ my Lord, but not my savior" (or vise versa). This is a manmade system that fallaciously attempts to draw a line of demarcation between who Jesus is and what He did for us. The problem with this line of thinking is- its not a biblical concept.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears as though we're touching upon a particular way that some view salvation and its implications called- Lordship Salvation.

I have a few problems with this line of thinking. First off, Lordship Salvation focuses on making Christ both your Savior and Lord.

This is a man made litmus test to see if one is of the faith. I have combed the Scriptures and the Bible never makes the distinction of Christ being Savior and Lord, He's both (you don't get Him in "monthly installments"). Not to mention what Misfit said "we can not make Christ anything."

The next problem I see is that L.S. also insists upon repentence and, if truly saved they will neccessarily produce fruit (works) that will prove or authenticate the genuiness of his faith.

Since when were we to become fruit inspectors? The definnition of Biblical fruit isn't works, it's found in Galatians 5:22-23- (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control...) These are all the byproduct of abiding in Him.

So what then is to be the motivation for "fruit" production in Lordship Salvation? Would it be good behavior? The answer is simple- the motivation lies in proving to their self and others the authenticity of their salvation. Following this line of logic the conclusion we come to is, this is being done in the flesh ie-wood, hay and stubble.

So where's the assurance of salvation one can rest in that John so vigorously defends (1John5:12)? In Lordship salvation the assurance is nil.

Finally, Lordship Salvation focuses on a changed life as a result of salvation. Let me state that as you grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ your life will change, but we are not to measure it in another person's life.

My concern is how LS defines a changed life. A changed life in LS eyes would be changed behavior. Once saved we are changed judicially, regardless if those around us can "see" a changed life or not. Some may NEVER show any striking resemblance of a true believer. In fact some may sip milk from a bottle their whole life through and never have the opportunity to store up treasures in heaven. AND some (though very few in my estimation) may even experience the "sin unto death," inwhich the Lord takes oen home b/c they're no good for His plan and purpose here on earth.

Thinking about this I realize that submitting to the Lordship of Christ isn't an issue of salvation but of spiritual growth. I have heard Lordship called the adolescent stage of the Christian Life which I think is fitting.

"Centering upon Lordship deters the believer from coming to know Christ as his Life. Being under His Lordship constitutes Law-doing. Knowing Him as Life constitutes grace-Being." M.J.Stanford

Hope this helps.

Adam