Christ First Forum

by **Carmela** » 23 Nov 2009, 10:10

So, let's say someone receives Jesus as Saviour. For whatever reason, they don't grow but still love Jesus. I know of someone in particular who is saved but she has not grown in 20+ years. She still has baggage that could be dropped off if she made Jesus the Lord of her life and allowed Him to work. She's hard as nails but her life, other than her issues, show that she's a Christian. In other words, she no longer drinks or is a "loose woman". She's divorced and never remarried even tho her X is dead now. Oh, it's hard to explain. What I'm trying to say is that I know she's saved, but Jesus is not Lord of her life because she subconsciously does not allow Him to be. Maybe my perception of "Lord" is misplaced. This woman stopped drinking, smoking and sleeping around, to put it nicely, overnight. She entered a small church drunk and went to the altar for salvation and the outter part of her life changed. It's the inner part that I don't see a real change in. What do you think? Oh, she's also a minister and preaches now and then but she doesn't believe that women should be pastors which I agree with. I agree totally with her theologically. . .but there's just something off inside.

by **Remnant** » 23 Nov 2009, 12:42

You said: .but there's just something off inside.

That says a lot right there!

Lordsihip is not based on how much we sin or how little we sin. It is based on the finished work of what Jesus did and when we are truly born again then we will do whatever we can to please Him, for He is our only master. We are no longer slaves to sin but slaves to righteousness. We still sin, but we do not make it a prictice to sin or hapitually sin because our purpose in life is to please the master. That is why the scriptures say that we become bond servants.

John McArthure has written a pretty compelling peace on Lordship salvation.

An Introduction to Lordship Salvation

What follows is from the Grace Community Church Distinctive on LordshipSalvation . It was adapted from John MacArthur's material on the topic of lordship salvation, and serves as an excellent introduction to the subject.

The gospel that Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience, not just a plea to make a decision or pray a prayer. Jesus' message liberated people from the bondage of their sin while it confronted and condemned hypocrisy. It was an offer of eternal life and forgiveness for repentant sinners, but at the same time it was a rebuke to outwardly religious people whose lives were devoid of true righteousness. It put sinners on notice that they must turn from sin and embrace God's righteousness. Our Lord's words about eternal life were invariably accompanied by warnings to those who might be tempted to take salvation lightly. He taught that the cost of following Him is high, that the way is narrow and few find it. He said many who call him Lord will be forbidden from entering the kingdom of heaven (cf. Matt. 7:13-23).

Present-day evangelicalism, by and large, ignores these warnings. The prevailing view of what constitutes saving faith continues to grow broader and more shallow, while the portrayal of Christ in preaching and witnessing becomes fuzzy. Anyone who claims to be a Christian can find evangelicals willing to accept a profession of faith, whether or not the person's behavior shows any evidence of commitment to Christ. In this way, faith has become merely an intellectual exercise. Instead of calling men and women to surrender to Christ, modern evangelism asks them only to accept some basic facts about Him.

This shallow understanding of salvation and the gospel, known as "easy-believism," stands in stark contrast to what the Bible teaches. To put it simply, the gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ's authority. This, in a nutshell, is what is commonly referred to as lordship salvation.

The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation

There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.

What, then, are the distinctives of lordship salvation? What does Scripture teach that is embraced by those who affirm lordship salvation but rejected by proponents of "easy-believism"? The following are nine distinctives of a biblical understanding of salvation and the gospel.

First, Scripture teaches that the gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Pet. 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25). It is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18-20). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that repentance is simply a synonym for faith and that no turning from sin is required for salvation.

Second, Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5). Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Eph. 2:1-5,8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Phil. 1:6; cf. Heb. 11). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that faith might not last and that a true Christian can completely cease believing.

Third, Scripture teaches that the object of faith is Christ Himself, not a creed or a promise (John 3:16). Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ (2 Cor. 5:15). In other words, all true believers follow Jesus (John 10:27-28). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that saving faith is simply being convinced or giving credence to the truth of the gospel and does not include a personal commitment to the person of Christ.

Fourth, Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Cor. 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Gal. 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Rom. 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matt. 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Eph. 2:10), and continue in the faith (Col. 1:21-23; Heb. 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.

Fifth, Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3; Rom. 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven. In contrast, according to easy-believism, only the judicial aspects of salvation (e.g., justification, adoption, and positional sanctification) are guaranteed for believers in this life; practical sanctification and growth in grace require a post-conversion act of dedication.

Sixth, Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Rom. 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.

Seventh, Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Pet. 1:8-9; Rom. 8:28-30; 1 Cor. 16:22). They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality.

Eighth, Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3). On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith.

Ninth, Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Cor. 1:8). Those who later turn completely away from the Lord show that they were never truly born again (1 John 2:19). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that a true believer may utterly forsake Christ and come to the point of not believing.

Most Christians recognize that these nine distinctives are not new or radical ideas. The preponderance of Bible-believing Christians over the centuries have held these to be basic tenets of orthodoxy. In fact, no major orthodox movement in the history of Christianity has ever taught that sinners can spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior.

This issue is not a trivial one. In fact, how could any issue be more important? The gospel that is presented to unbelievers has eternal ramifications. If it is the true gospel, it can direct men and women into the everlasting kingdom. If it is a corrupted message, it can give unsaved people false hope while consigning them to eternal damnation. This is not merely a matter for theologians to discuss and debate and speculate about. This is an issue that every single pastor and lay person must understand in order that the gospel may be rightly proclaimed to all the nations.

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/A114

by **Jeani** » 23 Nov 2009, 22:31

Carmela,

Maybe these scriptures will help...

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

Christian character is produced by the HS, not by self-effort.

Is she change by self-effort or by the HS?

In my own church, I have many doubts, if some are truly saved or just babies in Christ.

They have never grown spiritually to show that Christ is the Lord..

However, I still believe only a small remnant will enter heaven through the Rapture...

by **Carmela** » 24 Nov 2009, 10:22

Using this same woman as an example. I know that she is saved. She just has not allowed the Lord to free her from deep rooted issues from her childhood. This comes with spiritual growth. To me, making Jesus Lord of your life means you allow Him to get into the deepest, inner parts of yourself. So, I see a difference between Jesus as savior and making Him Lord of your life. . .however, I think we're just confusing terms here and looking at the same thing from a different perspective. Someone like this woman who makes Jesus her whole life but fails to recognize her issues, will definately be stunted in spiritual growth but is saved. The Holy Spirit needs to open her eyes. . .a spirit of pride seems to be an issue. And, yes, I know what goeth before the fall. :) I know that I still have issues that the Lord is bringing up but that's because I want Him to and will allow Him to so He is Lord of my life. Ah ha. . .there's the difference!! People like this woman don't even realize they have issues and pride gets in the way of them recognizing that they are there. Well, I'm rambling. The John McArthur piece is very meaty and I need to percolate on it some more. Jeani, you do make a good point. She may be functioning from self or she may just STILL be a babe. Whatever it is, I pray that the Holy Spirit will wake her up!

However, I still believe only a small remnant will enter heaven through the Rapture...I AGREE!!

by **LdyinChrist** » 20 Mar 2010, 14:57

Was just reading and thought I'd post this here.

John MacArthur

We're studying the great theme of spiritual growth, and really looking at the keys to spiritual growth, what are the very vital ingredients in spiritual maturity process. In our first lesson last time we focused on the concept of the glory of God. Based on our study of Second Corinthians chapter 3 verse 18, where we see that as a believer focuses his life and attention on the glory of God, as he does that he will be changed into the very image of the Lord from one level of glory to the next, by the Holy Spirit. Now, the Holy Spirit then is the energy in spiritual growth. Spiritual growth is becoming more and more like Christ. And the pull that pulls us along, that gives the Spirit of God the thrust is as we gaze at the glory of the Lord. As we focus our attention on giving glory to God we are then pulled in the process of spiritual maturity.

Now we closed our last study by saying we wanted to share some practical ways in which we glorify God. If glorifying God is the master key to spiritual growth, what are the other keys that make up that master key? First of all, we glorify God by confessing Jesus as Lord. Now that's where it all begins, if my life is to be focused at glorifying God that means that initially I must focus my attention on the Lordship of Christ. Now what do I mean by that? Well, Philippians chapter 2 gives us the answer, verses 9 through 11. After the great passage on the kenosis or the humiliation of Christ, talking about how He became a man and ah, took upon Him the form of a servant, was found in fashion as a man, humbled Himself, became obedient unto death even the death of the cross. Then the Word of God says this, “Wherefore, God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven, in earth, and under the earth.” Now listen, “And every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.” Now listen, the humiliation of Jesus Christ was an act of obedience to the Father. In response the Father glorified Jesus Christ, and exalted Him, and then He calls on everything in the universe to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, and then gives this closing statement, “to the glory of God, the Father.” The reason then that we are to confess Jesus as Lord is because it glorifies God, the Father.

Now that is the basic principle of salvation, we are to confess Christ as Lord, that is salvation, for the glory of God. Now I believe that most people think that, we should be saved for other reasons than the glory of God. If you asked the average person uhm, why do you share Jesus Christ, why do you communicate your faith? They'll probably say, well, because we want to keep people out of going to hell. We want them to avoid eternal punishment. Now that's a valid reason, but not the major one. The major reason for people to be saved is not to avoid hell. Someone else might say, no I, I present Christ because of love, the love of Christ constrains me, because God loves them and because I love them I tell them about Christ. And that's a valid reason but not the main one. And someone might say, well I speak the Gospel because I'm commanded to do that, I'm commanded to go into all the world and preach the Gospel, make disciples, teach them all things whatsoever Christ has commanded. I'm commanded or I love or I want to keep people out of hell and all those are valid and all of those are Biblical reasons for evangelism, but they don't come tothe apex. The major reason to preach the Gospel, the major reason to become a believer is for the glory of God. It boils down to this, to live without salvation is to deny Christ, and to deny Christ is the greatest affront possible to God, it is the one sin that is unforgivable. If a person continues in unbelief that is an unforgivable sin. In fact that is the major sin of man. Jesus said in John 16 that He would send the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin, what sin? “Because they believe not in me.” The greatest sin that a man can commit is the failure to believe in Jesus Christ, why? Because that is to say, that He is not God, He is not the Savior, He is not to be worshiped, He is not to be Lord. And to say that is to dishonor the Father. In John chapter 5 for example, Jesus says so pointedly in verse 23, “All men should honor the Son, (listen) even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father, who sent him.” You cannot give glory to God unless you give glory to His Son, who is the fullness of His glory. So listen, we begin then to give glory to God when we give glory to Christ, and how do you do that? By confessing Him as Lord. And that simply means salvation. He's not talking about some second act, you don't say, well uh, I've taken Him as Savior but later on I'll make Him Lord, no‑no, those aren't two distinct things. When you are saved you confess Christ as Lord, that is salvation. In Romans 10:9 and 10 it says, “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

In other words, salvation is a matter of confessing the Lordship of Christ, that He is God, that He is sovereign, that He is Lord, and that is a personal application of that reality. Somebody asked me not long ago if I was a Lordship, Salvationist. I wasn't sure of what that was I thought you were supposed to stand on a corner and play a trumpet or beat a drum if you were one of those. But that isn't really what he meant. A Lordship, Salvationist, he meant is somebody who believes that you must believe that Jesus is Lord to be saved. ‘He said, do you believe that way? I said, I don't know any other way to accept Christ, He is Lord, and I accept Him on His terms not mine. I don't redefine Jesus as something less than He is and take Him that way. Is He Lord? I said to this person, and he said, yes. I said, then how do you take Him? You must take Him as He is. If you confess Jesus as Lord, it is to the glory of God.

More... http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/1386

by **Carmela** » 20 Mar 2010, 15:04

GREAT post, Libby. . thanks :)

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