Christ First Forum

Greeting Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I finally have chosen my first topic to discuss with you. For those that notice my handle it is Rogue Pastor. The Rogue is because I do not pastor in the accepted mainstream fashon. Rather I am an Itinerate Preacher who, like the Apostle Paul makes my regular living by a trade and not from the church. I pray that will change but it has to be God's will for it to happen. The Pastor part is accurate not a name to get attention.

With that I bring up a topic which has plagued mankind from the monent Moses wrote the First 5 Books of the Bible till this very day. It the Bible Literal or Metephorical. Now when I say literal I do understand that the bible does contain Figurative language. The Parables are a perfect example of this. Christ taught in parable. He told stories that didn't occur the exact same way they were told to teach a lesson. I believe He did so that the non believers would read it and see nonsense, I also believe Jesus wanted us to think and meditate and pray about His words to find the answers. I also believe the lessons the parables impart are in fact literal.

The Random House Dictionary defines Metaphor - a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance.

Like many of you ( I hope) I have read the bible many times as well as done topic specific research from within its pages. I ask you is there anything in the bible that you can recall that can not be applied literally to your life? I truely can not think of any. There was once a time when i could but during that time I could also find contradictions in the bible. Of course during that time I was still a bottle fed Christian living on the milk of the Word as I had not yet cut my teeth on its meat. There may even be some milk Christians in this forum today that will read this and think, I have an example where the bible speaks of something I can not literally apply to my life. I encourage you to think long and hard before posting it for there are some Beleivers here that no longer live by milk but rather feast upon the Word.

I do not say this to discourage you from posting but rather to prepare the fields of your mind for the sowing of seed. Be open to the idea that you may be corrected as I must be open to the idea that someone may be able to show me that the bible, God's Living Word is just metaphor and not to be taken literally. I will tell you i do not believe that can be done but I remain open to the fact that I may be wrong as I am not God and therefore have limited knowledge and wisdom.

So again is the Bible Literal or Metephorical and why do you believe that?

RP

I agree totally Carmela.

Carmela wrote:As I was looking for the particular Scripture I wanted to share to express why I believe the Word of God is literal, I realized that from the Old Testament to Psalms, Proverbs and the New Testament, there is Scripture relating to the Bible being literal. . Deu 8:3 and Luke 4:4 are just two examples. But the one I was looking for was 2 Tim 3:16 "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in rightousness".

Amen Carmela!

If God said it, I believe it, That settles it! He is the Word!

Trotting out 2 Tim 3:16 is to me, is akin to pulling out the big gun to swat a fly. While I know that passage is true and literal it also puts the non-belliever on the defensive. If you hae ever felt that way you know from experience that when you feel defensive your reasoning skills decrease. This is not a blast against you Carmela by any means as I truely agree with you completely.

So here is the challenge to any willing to take it. Search your Bible and find the Scriptures both Old and New Testament, for the Bible to be taken literally. Also examine the Parables of Christ for the lesson that is being taught and see if those lessons can be applied to everyday life. I can tell you that all the parables have Scripture that supports the lessons imparted. Can you find them? If so list them as well along with the parable they support.

Rememeber that as Christians we MUST be ready to give an answer to anyone that asks. We MUST at all times defend the faith. The answers you find will allow you to be that much more effective in sowing the seeds of faith in this fallen world.

RP

RP, I can't think of a better scripture that is fitting for the subject then the one that Carmela posted. 2 Tim 3:1 For it is the one that gives answer that every word that comes from the Bible is God breathed.
Jesus also said that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
The challenge that you offer is a mighty one that would take many hours of study and search. And I hope that some might do so.

But, would you mind sharing those with us?

Remnant,

You are of course right Carmela's Scripture is the best. I ask you to consider this from the non-believers POV. When entering into a theological discussion with a non-believer pulling that Scripture right out of the gate is the equivalent to saying, "I'm right and your wrong". It doesn't matter that it is true if the person closes down. Paul in 2 Cor 6:3 We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited. When we go forth and preach and evangelize the Good News we must take care that our methods do not alienate those we wish to see join us in salvation.

Remant asked me to respond to my challenge to you. I am willing to comply to two reasons. First because he asked so nicely. The other is because of my own statment that we must be ready to give answers for our faith.

So here is a taste of that. Instead of just providing information I prefer to tantalize people to search for themselves. So I tell them the Bible is to be taken literally. When they ask for proof one of my favorate tactics is to inform them the in the Gospels, Jesus is record 63 times teaching with the preface of "I tell you the truth". Granted as the Gospel repeat a lot many of these can be narowed doneto about 25 - 35 seperate examples. I then remind them of the staement of Christ when He claimed I am the way, the truth and the life. So to make them want to search I ask them to simply look at those statements and see if anything Jesus said in those passages ever proved to be false. In truth, to date no one has ever returned with a single scrap of evidence proving anything Chrst said was false.

By establishing Christ as a teller of truth by His own statemnets it lends crediblity to the Bible as a document(s) of truth. Next i ask them to apply the truths Christ claims to their lives and the situations they face. When they do this they find that those truthes literally work. In doing it this way I have in effect taught the person to fish rather than merely giving him a fish. They have to think for themselves and find the conclusions for themselves. In doing so they find the truth without having been told that their position is wrong. Instead they simply find the truth, literally.

RP

Carmela,

The dilemma you discribe it becoming more and more common. It is highly frusterating I know. I myself have come across the same many times. Sometimes you just have to tell the truth and leave it alone. It very well may be that you are not the one to break through in the evangelism process. As to what to tell these folks that insist on all inclusive Scripture it is first important that you acknowledge that will the holy books of other religions are not wholly wrong neither are they wholly right. In doing this you acknowledge that at least some of what they believe is true. All religion contains at least some truth after all. Unfortuneately this religions also contain patient falsehoods as well.

I find a good way to start off is with the info I posted earlier about the truth. Using the truth as a foundation puts you on very solid footing. So you have given the querier the task of looking at the claim of Christ prefaced with the words "I tell you the truth". If they come back for more (which doesn't happen often) then direct them to the absolute statement of Christ in John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Not only is this an absolute statement it is also an exclusive one. Jesus who made it a point to tell us He is telling the truth also claims to be in very nature truth. Of course meaning that without Him there is no knowable truth. Jesus goes on in this exclusive statement and declares that no one, not me, not you, no one comes to the Father EXCEPT through Him. If the querier is right about multiple paths to God then why would Jesus tell us there is only one way? It makes no sense to claim this as we can not verify it and still be alive.

Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment. This makes it clear that to confirm the accuracy of Jesus one would have to die. I don't know anyone willing to risk that they are wrong by trying it. Do you? Does anyone? Now as Christian we know there are 2 possible judgements for man. The Bama Judgement or the Judgement seat of Christ which the totality of our lives is passed through the fire and only that which is Holy and Godly will survive but even if nothing in your life is Holy and Godly the person will still be saved. the other judgement is the Great White Throne Judgement. This is the judgement for all those that died in rebellion. No follower of Christ will ever face this judgment.

So we have jesus as a confirmed truth teller by practical application. We have His declaration of a single way to the Father. We have not one but two judgements, one for Choosing Christ and one for rejecting Him. While other religions also make exclusive claims the totality of their holy books falls apart when confronted by the absolute truth contained in the bible. For example. The Qur'an claims that Jesus is just a prophet and not God. Neither their book nor ours has a mere prophet, no atter how holy rising bodily from the dead and being witnessed as a solid being as opposed to a spirit being. Then you have the Upanishads, the Hindu holy book. It claim the Brahman is in everything and that the universe is eternal. The Bible states that Jesus stands at the door and knocks waiting for you to open the door and invite Him in. The Bible also states that God created everything so that while god has no beginning the Universe and everything in it does. Science confirms this as well. I recommend the book "I Don't Have the Faith to be an Atheist" by Norm Gisler and Frank Turek for more on that subject.

The truth is if you look you can find the entire Bible scattered through the writings of the world religions. However you can not find the entire holy book of the other world religions scattered in the same manner.

RP this is a good topic discussion here. Carmela is right about 2 Timothy. But I would also like to present another Good scripture. This is James chapter 1 verse 5.. You see when we are unbelievers the wisdom comes from ourselves. In James 1 verse 5 we can see God can give us his own wisdom to teach his word. .

Long ago like most of us relied on what we knew. What I was taught by friends and in school when we pick up a Bible we are trying to figure this out in our own ways and understanding. This is why many will put the Bible back on the shelf. They did not understand because the need God's wisdom to help them to understand.

This is God's perspective view point and not of our own.

A few years ago Time magazine said the 4 Gospels was a hoax. It could not be true or proven to be right. Time is an important magazine to many people whom would then agree with Time. But Jesus also told us in the last days people would scoff at him. They would not believe. But yet even I did not believe in the early 90s. I even laughed at much of what I heard. I thought God was just a spectator in all this.

I often use analogies. Jesus uses parables. It was spoken by a prophet he would speak in parables. Even so the Disciples asked him. Why do you speak to us plainly but to them in parables?

Jesus said to them. Indeed I have spoken to you plainly but to them I have spoken in parables. For they see with their eyes but they do not perceive they listen with their ears but they don't understand. If they don't even believe what they do see how will they believe what they don't see? Jesus uses these parables so that we can understand both what we can see and the things of the kingdom of heaven we can not.

These parables are to be taken literal in that it is teaching us a lesson from God. Once upon a blue moon I could not grasp these parables. Now I can grasp a lot of these. And these parables are literal parables to teach of how to live in this life and what is to come after this life. We would not understand if Jesus told us plainly. In this way in parables He knows we could grasp this. Much in part but other pastor’s books and such I have learned these parables. The Bible says do not forsake The Church unto yourself. If God has told The Church I have learned from them even if I have not attended in person. I have listened to what they have said and have learned a lot.. But truly this is from God. God led me to those whom understand and could teach me. In likewise I try to do the same.

When I was an unbeliever, it mattered not what a Christian might say to me about the Bible being "literal". It was very easy for me to believe it was written by men and not some kind of "god".

After I became a believer, my husband said, "Do you really believe all that's written in the Bible?" I said that even though I hadn't read it all, if it was in the Bible, I believed it.

Until a person is willing to yield himself to the Lord, that person will have issues with the truth of God's Word. It's really a heart issue and not an intellectual one.

This is not to say that we shouldn't "Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction" (2 Tim 4:2) Or that we shouldn't "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." (1Peter 3:15)

I'm just saying that there are some opponents of the Lord and His Word who will try to waste our time with futile arguments. I was one of those opponents for many years. No one was able to touch this hard heart. It took the Holy Spirit Himself.

I don't really know if my post adds anything to the discussion or not, but I was trying to look at the subject as a liberal non-Christian might look at it.

Until a person is willing to yield himself to the Lord, that person will have issues with the truth of God's Word. It's really a heart issue and not an intellectual one.

Amen Lynda, The first step is that person has to be drawn to repentance and realize they are lost, that conviction only comes through the power and prompting of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture should be taken from a literal standpoint - nothing proves it like fulfilled Bible prophecy. There are over 100 prophecies of Jesus' first coming in the OT, ALL of which were fulfilled, literally. Bible prophecy is 100% accurate. I find nothing to indicated that He changed His method in mid-stream.

Many well respected, mainstream (by that I mean not the fringe guys), conservative prophecy preachers/teachers have written much on this subject, all in agreement of the literal method. Sure the Bible has symbollism, but behind each, there is a literal meaning - just take a look at the sun clothed woman in Rev. Ch. 12. There are figures of speech used on occasion, which we easily recognize. I think it was Augustine, if I remember correctly, who started interpreting from a symbollic standpoint, to appease the Roman govt. I won't even take the time to look it up - it's so nonsense. Those who interpret scripture from that method can make scripture mean anything they WANT it to mean - that is NOT what God intended.

As all of you here know, I'm big on Bible prophecy. In most of the churches today, it is a subject that is mostly ignored. Yet, at least 25% of the Bible was prophetic, when written. That's an amount about equal to the size of the NT - yet it's ignored by many. Why? I say it's because satan has entered into the scheme of things and doesn't want it preached. From what I understand, it isn't even taught in many seminaries. Amazing!!! What about the doctrine of imminence? Satan doesn't want people to know that Jesus could return for the true Church at any moment. I place such a huge emphasis on that doctrine, because when I was unsaved, THAT was what kept bearing on my mind. What if Jesus returned today - was I ready? Satan doesn't want people thinking that, if they do, the Holy Spirit might convince them to get on their knees, truly repent of their sins, and accept the Lord - something satan certainly doesn't want. I don't want to go to any church or listen to any pastor who won't stand in the pulpit and say that Jesus could return today.

I'm saying all this because, again, prophecy proves God's Word is literal. It all points to Jesus, and as Peter said, it's as a light that shines in a dark place, and we would do well to heed it. Many aren't, how terribly sad in this Laodicean church age.