Christ First Forum

By far one of the more controversial hot topics in Christendom today is in the area of the gifts of the Spirit. You’ll find of myriad of questions that surface when this topic is mentioned- are they for today, did they cease to exist after the last apostle died, or are some gifts present while others no longer function in this age? And if one doesn’t have a firm grasp on the Word of God, the believer’s soul will be muddled with confusion.

All of the questions are valid ones, but before I answer them we must first answer- why did God give gifts of- healing, signs, miracles and tongues to begin with? I see five primary periods of signs and gifts that scripture clearly confirm. They are Moses, Elijah and Elisha, Christ, the Apostles and the Antichrist. The main purpose for miracles, signs and wonders was to show God confirmed the messenger and/or the message. In other words, the miracles, signs and wonders were a validation of God’s confirmation.

1) For example, Moses’ message was- let my people go! God made it clear to Moses that his signs would confirm him as His prophet (Exodus 4:1-17).
“But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, in all the signs and wonders which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt, before Pharaoh, before all his servants, and in all his land, and by all that mighty power and all the great terror which Moses performed in the sight of all Israel (Deut. 34:10-12). So the primary purpose of the signs, miracles and wonders was to confirm God’s messenger and his message. Pharoah and Egypt didn’t heed to Moses as God’s messenger and they were judged.

2) Elijah and Elisha performed miracles. (Luke 4:22-29) This was to confirm them as God’s messengers. Their message was the same. God was going to bring judgment and exile upon Israel if they did not repent. Though Israel witnessed their miracles, they didn’t listen and soon both kingdoms went into exile. This was the exact message they had brought to Israel.

3) Jesus came offering a myriad of signs, wonders and miracles. His message was to Israel first as their Messianic King. Even Nicodemus, a ruling Pharisee of the day recognized what Jesus did could only come from God. Yet, with all proof through “the demonstration of signs, wonders and miracles …you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death” (Acts 2:23). In John 20:30-31 it says that many other signs were performed in the presence of the disciples… “but these (signs, wonders and miracles) have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

4) The Apostles: “The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles (2 Cor.12:12). “All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles (Acts 15:12) Their message was God was now forming a new Body called the Church. It would be made up of both Jew and Gentile.

5) Antichrist: “Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders…” (2 Thess. 2:8-9) The Antichrist will be confirmed by signs and wonders. His message is to proclaim himself to be the one that should be worshipped and to deceive the masses.
So we’ve seen the purpose of signs, miracles and wonders- to confirm God’s messengers and their message. So what do we make of what we see today? How can we objectively test and confirm the signs, miracles and wonders? Well, we see in scripture that God has allowed and will allow false signs, miracles, wonders and prophecy (Deuteronomy 13:1-4). “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, (the reason)- for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. (and the response)-You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.” God wanted Israel to test anything and everything that came along.
The same is true today for the Church. A similar test is provided (1 John 4:1-4). Why did God give this to us? It’s a preventative from the god of this world. Satan manifests himself as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). Jesus fore warned that “false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive…” I read once that, “everything begins and ends with God’s Word, not with signs, miracles, wonders, or other words and prophecies.”
“Today do we need confirming signs, miracles, wonders, convincing proofs, additional prophecy or anything like that? Not at all we have something greater, better, and much richer. We have God’s Word, which is more than sufficient in all matters of faith and practice. Peter says we have something even greater than a vision of the glorified Christ at this time (1 Peter 1:17-21). Believers walk by faith, not my sight and definitely not by signs, miracles, and wonders and additional prophecies.” “There were those who believed, but the history of man is to reject the message and kill the messenger in spite of signs, miracles, wonders, and prophesy. Today we have the completed message from the ascended and resurrected Messenger.

Your experience does not determine what is genuine; the Word of God determines what is genuine even if you saw someone healed on TV, etc. Do not adjust God’s word to the experience. Experiences can be contrary to the Word of God, but be careful not to sift your Bible through what’s going on around you. It’s imperative to know your Bible, and use it as a grid to sift your experience through. This can be very difficult because you cannot deny your experiences.




Works Cited: David Olander

Plinco, Glad to see you on board again! I hope you will introduce yourself and share with us a little about your llife as a christian.

I hope to get to know you and share in your thoughts and knowledge of the word.

Plinko,

I agree with you 100%,and my SS teacher teaches the same concept.

We are saved by grace, but God elected us (the church) to reach those for Christ. (Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.)

He never elected us to do signs and wonder, but to live by faith (now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.)

One cannot believe in 'signs and wonders', and faith because they are opposites.

I want to copy these notes to give to my teacher.

Appreciate you,

Hello to all...

I just have one problem with this non-miraculous line of thinking...God miraculously healed me!! I was 13 years old and I tripped while running and fell on a jagged piece of metal sticking out of the ground that split my side wide open from my hip to my shoulder. My friends carried me into my house and my mom...a fairly new believer took God at His word that He would answer her prayers. She told everyone to leave and then she put some "anointing oil" (just plain old olive oil that had been prayed over) on the wound (my side was cut open at least an inch wide) she put a towel over it (to soak up the blood)...then she keeled down, placed her hands on me and prayed a little silent prayer. I have no idea what she said...but after about 5 minutes had passed she lifted up the towel and with a look of shock on her face she said " OH MY GOD"!!!...I looked down and the wound had closed up and had scabbed over...she quickly covered it again and continued praying and praising God and after about 20 minutes had passed it was all but gone and I went back out with my friends. That was over 30 years ago and I still have the scar to remind me it really happened. Sometimes I have trouble believing it was real myself and it happened to me...so I understand the wave of disbelief that is welling up inside of some of you as you read this...Many if not most people who hear my testimony tell me I'm crazy or that I'm lying.

As a result of this incident...no one will ever tell me that miracles, signs & wonders are not for today...I hold fast to Jesus words when He said "they (the "they" being them that believe...and not just the apostles) will lay hands on the sick and they shall recover"... and He also declared that signs and wonders would follow them that believe...the key here is "belief"...do a study on believe/unbelief and see where it leads you. I have prayed for many people over the years and have seen the Lord do mighty works on our behalf.

In 1 Cor 3:2 Paul chastised the Corinthians for not growing spiritually...he said they were babe's and not able to handle the meat of the Gospel...and if you go back and look at what precedes that statement in ch.2:9 he speaks of the great and magnificent things God has in store for us...but the understanding of such things is on a "spiritual" plane...and not on the natural or "carnal" level, in fact, to the natural man, spiritual things are misunderstood, shunned, and considered to be on the level of foolishness...but I declare to you...the deep things of God are supernatural from it's conception to it's manifestation...If you don't move beyond the basics of faith on to the "deep things of God"...you are immature and not spiritual at all...read the passage yourself and meditate on it.

Also...the writer of Hebrews (which I believe was also Paul) said basically the same thing to them but this time he outlines the difference between "meat" and "milk". The biblical definition of milk (Heb. 5:11-6:2) are simply the basic tenants of faith...repentance from dead works, faith towards God, the doctrine of baptisms (notice that one is plural), laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. He states that he has much to say to them but they can't bear it...they have become dull of hearing...they are immature and cannot hear deep spiritual truth. The milk of the gospel is what God has done in the past...the meat of the gospel is what God is doing right now. Is God actively working through you right now...if not...is it because you are not mature enough to be able to bear it???

I don't mean this to be harsh...but it's exactly what the bible says. People limit God by their own misunderstanding and their own personal experiences. As Christians, we are called to believe in things we cannot see...and that takes faith...and what that is...is a really high level of trust...and that high level of trust and belief will cause the power of God to manifest itself in the natural world. I believe all this stuff because it happens to me ALL the time. I have so many stories to tell of the good things God has done through me!!! Jesus told His disciples in John 14 that if we will believe in Him we will do the same works He did...and even greater works. He said if we keep His commandments He will manifest Himself to us. He didn't say how He would...just that He would...but there are two conditions...keep His commandments (love God and love each other) and believe. That's all it takes to begin walking in the wondrous world of the supernatural.

There is so much more to say on this topic.......

Chuck

Hi Chuck, Good to meet you!

You said:

I have so many stories to tell of the good things God has done through me!!! Jesus told His disciples in John 14 that if we will believe in Him we will do the same works He did...and even greater works.

My whole life has been full of miracles that God has done in my life and I could spend all day long on sharing them. If you would go back and read praises and testimonies you would see that.

I believe the scripture that you have made reference to has nothing to do with working miracles but the greater work that Jesus speaks of is sharing the gospel to more people then He did while He was on this earth and preaching the gospel to more souls on a personal level. That is why He left us with the great commission.

The greatest miracle to me is that one can have eternal life and be born again! Salvation is the ulitmate healing. Salvation is everlasting!

Hi Remnant... I look forward to reading your testimony when I get a free moment.

Jesus said THE SAME works I do AND greater works...don't leave any of the works out...He didn't!!! And...not to down play the importance of salvation, but...I'm not so sure that preaching the salvation message alone is what He was talking about. The apostles and others didn't just preach salvation so why should we??? Peter's shadow could heal anyone whom it fell upon...he didn't even need to touch them...Paul could send out pieces of cloth that had God's power to heal attached to it...Phillip, who was not an apostle at all but a deacon that was brought in by the apostles to minister to the needy...was "teleported" from one location to another by God apparently just because he was willing and available. The list goes on and on and none of this is a credit to the individuals themselves...all of it is according to the power of God that was at work in them. The bottom line is this...God wants to be good to His people and prove the validity of the Gospel message and He has chosen to work through His people in the church to get it done...

Mark 16:20 "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

Acts 4:29-30 "And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

Act 8:6 "And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did."

Eph. 3:20 "Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, ACCORDING TO THE POWER THAT WORKETH IN US".

People take their own personal experience and often times it's the lack of evidence in their own lives where they have prayed for something and nothing happens as the reasoning behind this unbelief theology...I understand, it happens to me too...I miss it sometimes...in fact I blow it more than I get it right, but...not all the time. The truth in God's word isn't dependent on what we think or whether we experience manifestations of God's power or not. Jesus told his disciples to cast out demons...sometimes they could and sometimes they couldn't and when they failed to do what they had been told to do...Jesus "upbraided" them for their unbelief. He made it clear the problem was with them...the same is true for us. Some years ago I made a decision that I would no longer determine what God could and could not do...I will not ever place any limits on God and since that time the manifestations have absolutely taken off...

God Bless

Chuck

Chuck, Out of the 12000 post, I am curious to why you picked this thread?

[i]Chuck,

I understand how you feel,but I also, believe as Plinko does...

I say this with 'love',and don't mean to 'discourage' you in anyway.

First Corinthians 13:8~ help me to understand that some of these gifts were fulfilled in the First Church...
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part.

But when that which is perfect has come,then that which is in part, will be done away.

Notice that when Christ died on the cross THE OLD LAW WAS DONE AWAY.

It could still be read in Paul's day as well as ours.

BUT ITS ACTIVITY IS GONE, being no longer in force!

In the same way, when "that which is perfect comes," the need and purpose for the gifts of prophecy and knowledge would be gone; when the divine revelation was complete, these gifts would stop via inactivity.

This context begins in 1 Corinthians 12:1 and ends with 1 Corinthians 14:40.

Chapter 12 deals with the diversity of spiritual gifts.

In 12:31 we are introduced to the quality of LOVE in contrast with SPIRITUAL GIFTS.

In V.31 Paul told the Corinthians, "But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

And I show you a still more excellent way."

Then in chapter 13:1-3 he points out that "love" is more important than the spiritual gifts of tongues, prophecies, and knowledge.

In vv. 9-10 Paul contrasts that which is "in part" and that which is "perfect." He says now we know "in part" and we prophesy "in part," and then tells us that which is ''in part" shall be done away with and replaced by "that which is perfect."

And then, (in v.12) he says, "I shall FULLY know as I am FULLY known."

Let's look at the two Greek words that are translated as "in part" and "perfect." "In part" is translated from the Greek [ek merous], meaning PARTIALLY.

Paul knew God's will PARTIALLY (through spiritual gifts).

Later Paul would know FULLY (or completely) when all the parts are put together.

Look at 1 Corinthians 12:27 where Paul speaks of "members in particular." (ek merous); i.e. each person who had a gift was only a part of the whole. (Consider the context.)

"Perfect" is translated from the Greek [teleion], meaning, according to Thayer's LEXICON, "brought to its end, finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness."

Don't ever wish you could go back to that time when they had spiritual gifts.

Don't ever think that we have less than they did then.

We have the PERFECT revelation from God.

Desiring "spiritual gifts" is to desire to go back to looking through the "dark glass."

Spiritual gifts ceased because their need ceased.

Some died instantly.

The spiritual gifts of prophecies and knowledge was "done away" [katargeo].

When God finished His gospel to us there was no more need for those spiritual gifts.

These spiritual gifts stopped because God stopped revealing.

His message was complete.

Some spiritual gifts lingered for awhile and died of their own accord.

The spiritual gift of tongues would "cease" [pauomai], or stop by itself.

One would assume that when the last person died who had the spiritual gift of tongues, that spiritual gift died also.

Spiritual gifts were never meant to last forever.

While the church was in its infancy they were needed.

But the church became full grown. God, as in all of those things He created miraculously, gave the church all that it needed to continue to reproduce after itself.

That's why today, when you plant the "seed," the word of God (Luke 8:11) in fertile soil (the heart of the honest man, Luke 8:15) the fruit that is produced is simply a Christian.

I am thankful that we live in the age of the "still more excellent way" ..... "But now abide faith. hope, love, these three; BUT THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE. "

Not to diminish what you saw and felt at 13 years old,but I believe it was an 'answered prayer' from God.

God is still in the business of answering prayers....

Like Frank said....the greatest miracle is 'salvation...'

No reason really...God has just been so amazing in my life!!!

One day I felt an overwhelming urge to get up way too early for work but I couldn't shake it so I did...I got ready for work and was ready to go at least a half hour too early and I was just about to sit down with a cup of coffee and catch some morning news but again...I was overwhelmed with the urge to go on to work so I did...You must know that I am a very rigid creature of habit and I do the same things almost everyday of my life and at the very same time...there is absolutely no reason that I would do these things...but completely out of the ordinary...I did. My route to work takes me along two very busy four lane highways w/ speed limits set at 70 mph...so most people go at least 80!!!...anyway as I'm about to make my exit off the highway...early on a dark foggy morning...with two semi trucks behind me in both lanes traveling at highway speed...and I met a school bus which had made a wrong turn and was heading into oncoming traffic on the off ramp. That day I was very strongly urged to do things I would never ordinarily and it put me in a position to stop a terrible tragedy from occurring. Some may call it a series of coincidences but I don't...I know me. God loves and cares for people and what would have happened if I hadn't been sensitive to and acted on what I was feeling?

Jesus said "I don't do anything but what my Father tells me"...If He needed the Father to tell Him what to do, we surely do too...I play the keyboard in our praise and worship group at church and one day a friend of mine and his wife came to the front for prayer...I felt that same urge as before to go down and pray with them but I said to myself, there are others down there to pray with them, I don't need to go...Then all of a sudden I felt some sort of pressure on my lower back and I thought this is weird but still I didn't do anything...then the pressure became more intense and it was like a vibration pushing me into my keyboards...by now I'm totally freaked out and I froze...After the service I went to my friends and ask them what they went down for and they said..."you know what, we really felt like you were supposed to come pray with us...Mike has been having something wrong with his back"!!! I completely missed it that day...but I am learning.

If signs and wonders aren't real...how do you explain these things? God wants to help people, but we are His body...He is going to use us, the only question is...are you willing?

Chuck

Sorry for the re-post

Hi Jeani

You know I respect your views...but on this one I respectfully disagree.

Lets look at the text...

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Until the rapture of the church occurs and we see Him "THEN FACE TO FACE"...we have limited understanding (now we see through dark glass)...we operate on a childish level compared with the fullness of God...He has given to us tongues and prophesy, and signs and wonders to help us along the way but when we see Him face to face and receive "that which is perfect", our glorified, incorruptible, resurrected bodies...we will at that time put away childish things...we will "THEN" have full knowledge even as we are fully known. Paul is speaking of the rapture of the church...not the bible. He uses the comparison of a physical child and childlike mental faculties with a fully developed adult. When we are transformed in the twinkling of an eye and that which is perfect has truly come...this passage of scripture will "THEN" be fulfilled.

Chuck

This is an area of scripture that I have not studied, so I will refrain from comment - to do so would be to only express an opinion, which is totally worthless. I would like to comment on Jeani's statement about we can disagree and still love each other in the Lord, which is so very, very true. I was told once by a friend that "we can disagree, and still be friends" - well, same here. we can disagree, and still love each other. Jesus in fact commands us to love each other. Somewhere in here that "pride" things surfaces, and I myself have to be wary of that and fight it. Listen, we may be separated by hundreds/thousands of miles, but we're all brothers & sisters in Christ, so let's stay close, as He wants us to do. We need each other in many ways, the sharing of the Word, support, prayer, etc. Christ's love to all of you - Troy

Hi Jeani

I just have to say what a sweet spirit you have...you are so wonderful!!! After talking things through I don't think we really disagree very much on this at all except for maybe the way we define things. We just need to continue to be sensitive to the Spirit of God and Walk in Him, and your quilt story tells me that you definitely are sensitive to His Spirit and also that God loves His people and He uses plain ole' folks like you and me...just like He said He would to help people who need Him.

Regarding the article at the beginning of the thread...The author admittedly makes statements based on his opinion...and it's OK to draw conclusions for yourself when the Bible doesn't clearly say something...and it's OK to share your thoughts with others as well...but he concludes the article by saying that people who operate in spiritual gifts today simply don't know and/or understand what the Bible says...Wait a minute...The vast majority of my life is spent studding the scriptures...and I emphatically believe I understand things differently than the author does.

Concerning the Corinthian church...these people had some real problems and most of Paul's 1st letter ( which was actually his 2nd...the first one was lost) was written to help straighten them out, and I have to say this regarding spiritual gifts, (which I do advocate)...many on the charismatic side of the isle view the baptism of the Holy Spirit as some sort of magic bullet that is supposed to make everything all better...I couldn't disagree more and the Corinthian church is the proof. These people were immature and carnally minded so Paul devoted a large part of the letter toward instruction on "charity" or, God's kind of love. There will come a time when there will be no need for any type of spiritual gift and they will cease to exist...but the love of God will never end. The Corinthians were fighting among themselves, taking each other to public court, getting drunk at communion, divided over who they were going to follow...living in sexual sin...etc...they had the gifts...but weren't walking in love. Amazingly...according to our scriptures...it IS possible to do just that, and we still see evidence of this exact same scenario at work today. When a Christian is living in an ungodly way, yet walking in signs and wonders, then when the sin is finally discovered...all the wondrous works are attributed to the devil. I don't think so.

What Paul is saying is...You can operate in every single gift there is ...but if you don't do it motivated by the spirit of God's love...it's useless.

To everyone...

If I have said anything in previous posts that has had a negative overtone...I sincerely apologize...it's just that my experiences are completely contrary to this line of thinking, and I'm quite passionate on this topic. I have seen so many awesome things...things I can't explain in the natural and there is no way I'm gonna believe that the devil is healing people and helping them in Jesus name. Two weeks ago I was praying for people at my church and someone with a locked jaw had it immediately opened up...a baby with a skin disorder since birth was healed...and I prayed for a man who was about to loose his job, he came back last week saying he got another job doing the same thing with twice the pay!!! I prayed for someone in the past with a tumor and I put my finger on it and cursed it in Jesus name and it fell off in my hand!!! There have been so many...and I have to stress this point...It's not about me...Jesus said, "with out Me you can do nothing". I don't do anything but what He said to do and that is..."lay hands on the sick and they shall recover" and I don't get or want any of the credit either.

God is so good!!!

Chuck