Christ First Forum

A Study of two sinners

Title: The Holy Bible, King James Version

1 Samuel 15
1Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent (appointed) me to anoint ( rub with oil or consecrate, set apart) thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken (diligently give ear or listen) thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek (grandson of Esau ) did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
Title: Adam Clarkes Commentary on the Old Testament
Author: Clarke, Adam
1 Samuel 15:2
I remember that which Amalek did—The Amalekites were a people of Arabia Petraea, who had occupied a tract of country on the frontiers of Egypt and Palestine. They had acted with great cruelty towards the Israelites on their coming out of Egypt. (See Exodus 17:8 (note), and the notes there). They came upon them when they were faint and weary, and smote the hindermost of the people—those who were too weak to keep up with the rest. (See Deuteronomy 25:18). And God then purposed that Amalek, as a nation, should be blotted out from under heaven; which purpose was now fulfilled by Saul upwards of four hundred years afterwards!
They were cruel and only attacked the weak and sickly God was very displeased.

3Now go and smite (slaughter) Amalek, and utterly destroy (completly destroy) all (every thing) that they have, and spare (have pity or compassion) them not; but slay (destroy like the destroyer example the death angel in Egypt ) both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 4And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah. 5And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley. 6And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye showed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. 7And Saul smote (slaughtered) the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt. 8And he took (seized or captured) Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. 9But Saul and the people spared (had pity) Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile (despised) and refuse (diseased) , that they destroyed utterly. 10Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying, 11It repenteth (the Lord sighed and was sorry) me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back (turned away or do evil) from following me, and hath not performed (abide in or accomplish) my commandments.

Title: Matthew Henrys Concise Commentary on the Whole Bible
Author: Henry, Matthew
Repentance in God is not a change of mind, as it is in us, but a change of method. The change was in Saul; "He is turned back from following me." Hereby he made God his enemy. Samuel spent a whole night in pleading for Saul. The rejection of sinners is the grief of believers: God delights not in their death, nor should we. Saul boasts to Samuel of his obedience. Thus sinners think, by justifying themselves, to escape being judged of the Lord. The noise the cattle made, like the rust of the silver, James 5:3, witnessed against him. Many boast of obedience to the command of God; but what means then their indulgence of the flesh, their love of the world, their angry and unkind spirit, and their neglect of holy duties, which witness against them? See of what evil covetousness is the root; and see what is the sinfulness of sin, and notice that in it which above any thing else makes it evil in the sight of the Lord; it is disobedience: "Thou didst not obey the voice of the Lord." Carnal, deceitful hearts, like Saul, think to excuse themselves from God’s commandments by what pleases themselves. It is hard to convince the children of disobedience. But humble, sincere, and conscientious obedience to the will of God, is more pleasing and acceptable to him than all burntoffering and sacrifices. God is more glorified and self more denied, by obedience than by sacrifice. It is much easier to bring a bullock or lamb to be burned upon the altar, than to bring every high thought into obedience to God, and to make our will subject to his will. Those are unfit and unworthy to rule over men, who are not willing that God should rule over them.

And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night. 12And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning, it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and, behold, he set him up a place, and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal. 13And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD. 14And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear? 15And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed. 16Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what the LORD hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say on. 17And Samuel said, When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel? 18And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners (criminals or those accounted guilty) the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed. 19Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly (swoop down on) upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD? 20And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. 21But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal. 22And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight (does the Lord have pleasure) in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken (open your ears give heed to) than the fat of rams. 23For rebellion (a bitter heart) is as the sin of witchcraft, (divination seeking the spirits) and stubbornness (to peck at like a bird feeding on a dead animal on road he runs for a minute and keeps coming back to feed when it’s safe) is as iniquity (to come to nothing just spinning your wheels) and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected (cast away refuse) thee from being king. 24And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned (missed the mark) : for I have transgressed (crossed over the line turned away) the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. 25Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon (forgive) my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD.

Title: Adam Clarkes Commentary on the Old Testament
Author: Clarke, Adam
1 Samuel 15:25
Pardon my sin—Literally, bear my sin; take it away; forgive what I have done against thee, and be my intercessor with God, that he may forgive my offense against him; turn again with me, that I may worship the Lord.
26And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel. 27And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent. 28And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent (cut out) the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour (compainon or close associate) of thine, that is better (a good man ) than thou. 29And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. 30Then he said, I have sinned: yet honour me now, I pray thee, before the elders of my people, and before Israel, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD thy God. 31So Samuel turned again after Saul; and Saul worshipped the LORD.

Title: Matthew Henrys Concise Commentary on the Whole Bible
Author: Henry, Matthew

VERSES 2431
There were several signs of hypocrisy in Saul’s repentance. 1. He besought Samuel only, and seemed most anxious to stand right in his opinion, and to gain his favour. 2. He excuses his fault, even when confessing it; that is never the way of a true penitent. 3. All his care was to save his credit, and preserve his interest in the people. Men are fickle and alter their minds, feeble and cannot effect their purposes; something happens they could not foresee, by which their measures are broken; but with God it is not so. The Strength of Israel will not lie.

32Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past. 33And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal. 34Then Samuel went to Ramah; and Saul went up to his house to Gibeah of Saul. 35And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

Saul had a few character flaws as we see in these verses. What do you see as some of his short comings? Pride? self righteousness? Not listening to God? Not able to come to true repentance? Seeking to please man instead of God?



David in contrast to Saul

Psalm 51

TO THE CHIEF MUSICIAN, A PSALM OF DAVID, WHEN NATHAN THE PROPHET CAME UNTO HIM, AFTER HE HAD GONE IN TO BATHSHEBA.
1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot (Utterly wipe away) out my transgressions. (Moral or religious revolt) 2Wash ( trample my sin under your foot Lord is what David is saying here) me thoroughly from mine iniquity (moral peversity), and cleanse (hold me guiltless) me from my sin . (Habitual sinfullness) 3For I acknowledge (I have considered and fully recognize) my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, (missed the mark) and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7Purge (cleans) me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: (uncontaminated and morally innocent) wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Title: Adam Clarkes Commentary on the Old Testament
Author: Clarke, Adam
Psalm 51:7
Purge me with hyssop—éðàèçú techatteeni, "thou shalt make a sinoffering for me;" probably alluding to the cleansing of the leper: Leviticus 14:1, etc. The priest took two clean birds, cedarwood, scarlet, and hyssop; one of the birds was killed; and the living bird, with the scarlet, cedar, and hyssop, dipped in the blood of the bird that had been killed, and then sprinkled over the person who had been infected. But it is worthy of remark that this ceremony was not performed till the plague of the leprosy had been healed in the leper; (Leviticus 14:3); and the ceremony above mentioned was for the purpose of declaring to the people that the man was healed, that he might be restored to his place in society, having been healed of a disease that the finger of God alone could remove. This David seems to have full in view; hence he requests the Lord to make the sinoffering for him, and to show to the people that he had accepted him, and cleansed him from his sin.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9Hide (cover) thy face from my sins, ( my crimes and their peaniltys) and blot (erase) out all mine iniquities. (Moral perversities) 10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. 14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. 15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall show forth thy praise. 16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. 17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. 19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

Title: Adam Clarkes Commentary on the Old Testament
Author: Clarke, Adam
Psalm 51
The psalmist, with a deeply penitent heart, prays for remission of sins, vv. 14; which he confesses, and deeply deplores, vv. 514; states his willingness to offer sacrifice, but is convinced that God prefers a broken heart to all kinds of oblations, vv. 1517; prays for the restoration of the walls of Jerusalem, and promises that then the Lord’s sacrifice shall be properly performed, vv. 18, 19.

If we compair Saul to David the man God said was a man after his own heart what differences do we see?

Saul disobeyed God many times yet never got right with God. David sinned greatly but truly repented and accepted responsibility for his sins and didn’t try to pass the blame on others like Saul.

It’s not our works or attempts to please God that makes us acceptable to God it’s the attitude of our heart that he looks at. Our reliance on Christ alone for our salvation and subsequent daily cleansing as we confess our sin to God is what he looks at.

Why is obedience more important to God than the sacrifices? Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commands.

Why is obedience more important to God than the sacrifices? Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commands.

Amen! Good message!

Remnant wrote:

Why is obedience more important to God than the sacrifices? Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commands.

Amen! Good message!

You know what Jesus said that brings obedience down to a level we can understand? Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself in these tow rest all the law. We just have to be sure who our faith is in and by what means we are given grace and righteousnessw. Paul said I will know nothing but Christ and him crucified. Too many churches are pushing another gospel and another Jesus.

Seeker friendly and other works based attempts to satisify God are sending millions to Hell. David knew that messiah must suffer and die and be raised from the dead and thats why he was saved and Saul was lost. Saul never had a personal relationship with God look at how many times he said to Samuel pray to thy God for me, he never accepted responsibility for his sin nor truly had a relationship with God. I guess the main difference is David committed adultry and murdered Uriah but David was not a murderer nor an adulterer in a continuase lifestyle wheras Sauls lifestyle was as a sinner and a rebel towards God. Thats why God could say David was a man after his own heart. David repented acknowledeged his transgressions and came back to God in a personal way.

Some believe Saul was saved because God 'annointed' him,and that's why David would never 'touch' him...

It's a 'gray' area for me...meaning I'm not for sure he was saved or not saved...

Just a thought, Don...

I like this statement: seeker friendly and other works based attempts to satisfy God are sending millions to Hell...sooo true...

Jeani wrote:Some believe Saul was saved because God 'annointed' him,and that's why David would never 'touch' him...

It's a 'gray' area for me...meaning I'm not for sure he was saved or not saved...

Just a thought, Don...

I like this statement: seeker friendly and other works based attempts to satisfy God are sending millions to Hell...sooo true...

Don's post was great. I'm with you on Saul, though, Jeani.

I'm inclined to believe Saul could very well have been saved.

Jannie wrote:

Jeani wrote:Some believe Saul was saved because God 'annointed' him,and that's why David would never 'touch' him...

It's a 'gray' area for me...meaning I'm not for sure he was saved or not saved...

Just a thought, Don...

I like this statement: seeker friendly and other works based attempts to satisfy God are sending millions to Hell...sooo true...

Don's post was great. I'm with you on Saul, though, Jeani.

I'm inclined to believe Saul could very well have been saved.

The reason I don't believe Saul was not saved is for a couple of reasons. First his attitude towards his sin, he refused to accept responsibility for his actions. Saul passed the buck and blaimed others for what happened. Second he showed NO evidence of having a personal relationship with God. Every time he reffered to God to the prophet it was pray to YOUR God for me. Saul nev3er claimed God in a personal way.

Another thing just because Saul was annoin ted does not mean he was a Godly man. Annointing was a symbolic setting apart for service in his case being King it had no spiritual connotation.

True Don...is why I said...it's a very 'grey' subject to me...

I'm very 'free will', and totally not 'election',and I don't believe in 'election for salvation'...

I do believe in 'election for God's perfect plan' for us...though...

Saul could have been 'appointed' for God's perfect plan, even though he became evil, and not appointed for salvation...

But David had many opportunties to kill Saul,but he didn't , because Saul was God's annointed...

Just as the twelve disciples were 'called', Judas was of the devil, at the very beginning...

To me, it throws out the 'Calvinist teachings' that God 'picks' and 'chooses' who will be saved without our 'free will.'

God chose Judas to fulfilled his evil plan so that He could go to the cross for our sins...

Sooo I really will not be admanant on Saul's salvation,but lean toward him not being saved...